The allocating should be done by the seller to a grower which he deems reputable. I never stated no one should purchase rare plants- You're trying to turn my negative comment into a negative extreme.
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Mmmhmm (EBay)
The allocating should be done by the seller to a grower which he deems reputable. I never stated no one should purchase rare plants- You're trying to turn my negative comment into a negative extreme.
Oh my. Seriously?!
Conservation is the foundation to a stable hobby. It appears quite a few of you have lost your way…
And Whimgrinder, I did win it:
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/132211299@N05/22131055478/in/dateposted/" title="sing x rhh"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5625/22131055478_cb1de42965_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="sing x rhh"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
And Whimgrinder, I did win it:
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/132211299@N05/22131055478/in/dateposted/" title="sing x rhh"><img src="https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5625/22131055478_cb1de42965_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="sing x rhh"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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NemJones
I Am the Terror Of the Night!
LOL ebay is CERTAINLY NOT the place to do this!
And just because you Own the plant itself does NOT mean you are conserving its species.
If you were truly for conservation, you would be breeding these plants and shipping yourself and those seeds off to Malaysia.
Maybe even sending them to seed banks. Either way, just owning one doesnt make you a conservationist. I need to see plans
of natural distribution before you even bring that phrase up again.
SubRosa
BS Bulldozer
No, you stated that anyone selling rare plants should think the same way you do.
I do agree that while sending seeds back to the natural habitat or banks is the most optimal option. However, wouldn't you rather see an alive plant in good conditions over a poor one because it was sold over eBay?
SubRosa: you argue in circles with yourself
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Thats what I keep hearing as well.
NemJones
I Am the Terror Of the Night!
I dont understand the correlation between the two.
Either way, there are collectors and then there are conservationists.
The difference between the two is defined by those who are trying to amass a plethora of amazingSpecimens,
and those who are trying to preserve the specimen's line for the future. Not just for themselves.
All im saying is that if you actually want your plants to a good home, ebay probably wont be
The best bet. You dont even know who youre selling to.
Sure, your plants may get lucky and go to someone who actually deserves them and is capable
Of growing them healthy and happy, but the other 90% of the time, it goes somewhere far away
Never to be heard from again. And lets just say most novice growers will throw absurd amounts of money
At rare plants in particular, just to get a shot at growing them.
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BUT how do YOU knowb they can't care for it? If you don't know who the Person IS? thats like me saying
" you have less tgen 50 pists on this forum you must not know how to grow plants their for YOU shouldnt be able to Buy any with your hard earned money if you are pleased to do so"
is that right to do? How can u judge who and what abilities someone has without KNOWING who they are... Let alone who the Person actually is. If you went into a store and bought something for your plants and the person at the checkout says "i cant sell that to you cause i dont know if u can use it properly to care for your plants, even if you can afford it" is pretty much saying tge same thing in this case. WE dont know this person...Nor is it our buisness to play police over the things they want to purchase with their own hard earned money without knowing anything about them.. Its pretty much illegal to deny selling something to someone based on such a thing.. Its their money they'll do whatever they want with it as they please and if they spend it on a plant they can't care for... It might suck, but that's life. Sometimes the Person who should get something ..doesn't. And the Person who prob shouldn't does. Life is basically controlled over money and if u have the money youre most likely gonna get the things you want.
And without my moderator hat on:
I think it boils down to what the point of ebay is. The goal of the seller is, above all, to try to get as much cash for their item as possible. If the concern for the survival of the plant outweighs your desire to maximize your profits, ebay isn't really the place.
Bummer that someone's suckin' up all the plants at the moment, but that's the name of the game on ebay. It sounds like they aren't defaulting on the items, so... good for everyone. Some skilled grower made some extra cash and can hopefully turn their sights onto propagating and disseminating (by ebay or otherwise) more rare plants. That means more plants circulating among community (in the broader sense). And if you're the one winning all the plants -- hey, good for you, I hope you enjoy them!
I think it boils down to what the point of ebay is. The goal of the seller is, above all, to try to get as much cash for their item as possible. If the concern for the survival of the plant outweighs your desire to maximize your profits, ebay isn't really the place.
Bummer that someone's suckin' up all the plants at the moment, but that's the name of the game on ebay. It sounds like they aren't defaulting on the items, so... good for everyone. Some skilled grower made some extra cash and can hopefully turn their sights onto propagating and disseminating (by ebay or otherwise) more rare plants. That means more plants circulating among community (in the broader sense). And if you're the one winning all the plants -- hey, good for you, I hope you enjoy them!
Basically any person selling on eBay.. Wants money.
They aren't too worried who the plant ends up with because they don't really care. I'm sure some do, but in reality they have NO control on auction sites like ebay.
Many of the people purchasing plants are rarely into keeping the species to share with others in the future or they'd buy them and donate them back into the wild conservatories or some other place where EVERYONE can enjoy learning and studying them...which would make them less rare to grow and not fetch the high prices they do. Many growers get into TC to grow rare plants and one speciment may make up to 40+ plants! And they sell those to whom they want because to them there have the means to create more.. A buyer who purchases these plants is really only concerned with getting the plant only for themselves to enjoy as a hobby. Most aren't trying to grow them for the future enjoyment of others.
Everyone at some Point starts out as a beginner in this hobby.. And NO ONE would have the collections they have now if some seller somewhere didn't sell them the plants they have now. And if the sellers were to be so selective in who they sell to based on their ability to grow such things then many of those people would not have the plants they have, let alone move padt beong anything but a beginner in the hobby. People can read and study about a plant but unless they grow it in their own location and trial and error what works for them they will most likely never know how to really grow such a plant.
Is it fair that just ANYONE can buy a rare specimen of plant for any amount if money? Prob not. But life isnt fair .. And in thus world money is the ruler of all. And if you have enough money you can basically get anything you want reguardless of your ability to care for your purchase. Someone may drop thousands of dollars on a car just to get drunk and crash it into a pole.. And if thet have the money they'll surely just go out and buy another one. If people denied people from buying things they couldnt care for then many people wouldnt have the things they have.
Do i honestly think its fair or right that someone can buy an N. Eddy with no knowledge on how to care or grow it..but just cause they have the money they can.. Prob Not. But who am i to tell them they can't buy something with their own hard working dollar..let alone who am i to distinguish who is knowledgeable and has the ability to grow such a plant without when knowing this Person? And when dealing with eBay when does that even matter?!?!?!? Sellers know what too expect when selling items on eBay..and if they truly wanted to sell the plant to Someone who there know can properly care Gore said plants then they prob wouldn't be selling them on eBay. But that's their buisness and they are selling tob get money not to keep the conservation of the plant alive for others, they are selling to get money for their item and to sell plants to those who have the money to but them.
Lots of people want to grow rare species of plants...and the only way they can grow them is to buy them and grow them first hand for their own experience. And i just don't think its right that one Person can get mad because another Person can buy something that they want and just because they don't know anything about them there cause a stink about the Person that has the money to buy it.
Its none of my business what Someone does with their purchase ...set ot on fire..whatever! If there have the money and want it enough ..its most likely they'll get it, and theirs nothing anyone can do about it. I might not like the idea of someone buying a plant just to end up killing it, but what can i duo about it? And how do i know what their gonna do with it? And why is their purchase any of my buisness..
They aren't too worried who the plant ends up with because they don't really care. I'm sure some do, but in reality they have NO control on auction sites like ebay.
Many of the people purchasing plants are rarely into keeping the species to share with others in the future or they'd buy them and donate them back into the wild conservatories or some other place where EVERYONE can enjoy learning and studying them...which would make them less rare to grow and not fetch the high prices they do. Many growers get into TC to grow rare plants and one speciment may make up to 40+ plants! And they sell those to whom they want because to them there have the means to create more.. A buyer who purchases these plants is really only concerned with getting the plant only for themselves to enjoy as a hobby. Most aren't trying to grow them for the future enjoyment of others.
Everyone at some Point starts out as a beginner in this hobby.. And NO ONE would have the collections they have now if some seller somewhere didn't sell them the plants they have now. And if the sellers were to be so selective in who they sell to based on their ability to grow such things then many of those people would not have the plants they have, let alone move padt beong anything but a beginner in the hobby. People can read and study about a plant but unless they grow it in their own location and trial and error what works for them they will most likely never know how to really grow such a plant.
Is it fair that just ANYONE can buy a rare specimen of plant for any amount if money? Prob not. But life isnt fair .. And in thus world money is the ruler of all. And if you have enough money you can basically get anything you want reguardless of your ability to care for your purchase. Someone may drop thousands of dollars on a car just to get drunk and crash it into a pole.. And if thet have the money they'll surely just go out and buy another one. If people denied people from buying things they couldnt care for then many people wouldnt have the things they have.
Do i honestly think its fair or right that someone can buy an N. Eddy with no knowledge on how to care or grow it..but just cause they have the money they can.. Prob Not. But who am i to tell them they can't buy something with their own hard working dollar..let alone who am i to distinguish who is knowledgeable and has the ability to grow such a plant without when knowing this Person? And when dealing with eBay when does that even matter?!?!?!? Sellers know what too expect when selling items on eBay..and if they truly wanted to sell the plant to Someone who there know can properly care Gore said plants then they prob wouldn't be selling them on eBay. But that's their buisness and they are selling tob get money not to keep the conservation of the plant alive for others, they are selling to get money for their item and to sell plants to those who have the money to but them.
Lots of people want to grow rare species of plants...and the only way they can grow them is to buy them and grow them first hand for their own experience. And i just don't think its right that one Person can get mad because another Person can buy something that they want and just because they don't know anything about them there cause a stink about the Person that has the money to buy it.
Its none of my business what Someone does with their purchase ...set ot on fire..whatever! If there have the money and want it enough ..its most likely they'll get it, and theirs nothing anyone can do about it. I might not like the idea of someone buying a plant just to end up killing it, but what can i duo about it? And how do i know what their gonna do with it? And why is their purchase any of my buisness..
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I tried writing something, but it became too long and unfocused and I lost my train of thought halfway through.
I just want to say, Kat, that I understand the points you're putting forth, but what I'm trying to get through is that in interpersonal trades or sales (no corporation or official store involved) It is the prerogative of the seller to sell, or not sell, to someone based on their judgement of the person. This principle can be seen in the parent who gets a child a cheap pet, like a goldfish, to see if they have the commitment to take care of it, before actually spending 40-500 bucks on getting a puppy.
We can help the hobby grow by educating those around us, and gifting, trading, or selling plants to those who we have learned to trust, and who we can help along the way if they get stuck.
I believe it is wise to err on the side of caution, but as you said, it's impossible to do that when working with a site like Ebay.
I just want to say, Kat, that I understand the points you're putting forth, but what I'm trying to get through is that in interpersonal trades or sales (no corporation or official store involved) It is the prerogative of the seller to sell, or not sell, to someone based on their judgement of the person. This principle can be seen in the parent who gets a child a cheap pet, like a goldfish, to see if they have the commitment to take care of it, before actually spending 40-500 bucks on getting a puppy.
We can help the hobby grow by educating those around us, and gifting, trading, or selling plants to those who we have learned to trust, and who we can help along the way if they get stuck.
I believe it is wise to err on the side of caution, but as you said, it's impossible to do that when working with a site like Ebay.
SubRosa
BS Bulldozer
And you base your position on this matter by the whim of the moment without a consistent foundation upon which to base it. The fact is that if you could you would impose your beliefs upon others. Thankfully you can't.
I'm not going to bother to address the imperious attitude and insinuations that underlie your first remark. But I will point out that since you did win the plant you were bidding on, and we have a pretty good idea of the price you paid for it, then you have successfully added your share of brute force ($$$) to the eBay paradigm, ensuring that bloated, exaggerated prices and a false sense of value will persist for all to enjoy. But then you got what you wanted, right? I doubt you care about the next person who comes looking for a specimen of that plant.
Remember this?:
Apparently there wasn't enough "price jacking" to deter you. Funny how we all arrive at a different figure when defining "a ridiculous amount". Gram for gram, I bet Plutonium is less expensive than your plant was, given what you paid for it. Just sayin!
SubRosa
BS Bulldozer
I've asked more than once for suggestions on how to deal with the "problem" presented by the op, and nobody has addressed this critical point. Since the general consensus is that eBay is all about getting the most money for whatever one offers, and given the position of the op that selling rare plants based strictly on maximizing the selling price is problematic, the solution is quite obvious. eBay needs to stop accepting auctions for rare plants. A lack of a solution is impotence, and if any other "solution" is even remotely workable I'd still like to hear it. Of course I'd also like to hear how and who gets to determine what constitutes rare.......
I would add to that, John - that the community also bears responsibility in the matter: we shouldn't encourage merchants to offer valuable plants on fleabay by buying that way.
I would also like to point out that any species that has been propagated via tissue culture is regarded by many as worthless as conservation material. So it could be argued that TC plants are perfectly reasonable fodder for fleabay auctions, since they have nothing to offer as conservation specimens. (Potential genetic damage/alteration, lack of genetic diversity, for starters)
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chibae
An orchid fancier with a CP problem
Ebay will accept sales of anything that no one with "clout" complains about. Witness the sudden inability to sell the Confederate Flag. I would sell no plant, rare or otherwise on Ebay. Due to their 'the buyer is always right" rules I can sell a N.raritus for $1200. The buyer complains to Ebay or Papypal that they received a dead plant. They send me back a dead N.venti. As long as it arrives back to me with postal tracking showing I received and signed for the box, buyer gets their money back and keeps the N.raritus. If I open the box before signing and refuse the package, I lose because refusing a package loses me any "protection" I might have.
If by chance I manage to prove that the buyer defrauded me and I get to keep the $1200. The buyer, who being smart will have funded his paypal purchase with a credit card, will then do a credit card charge back citing unauthorized use of his card and will have the tracking proof of the dead N.venti to show he had already returned the item to me.
I have been a seller on Ebay far too long, and participate in the fourms, under a different name than my selling or buying accounts, to risk selling anything there I can't afford to lose. And a live plant, rare or therwise is not something I would risk selling there.
If by chance I manage to prove that the buyer defrauded me and I get to keep the $1200. The buyer, who being smart will have funded his paypal purchase with a credit card, will then do a credit card charge back citing unauthorized use of his card and will have the tracking proof of the dead N.venti to show he had already returned the item to me.
I have been a seller on Ebay far too long, and participate in the fourms, under a different name than my selling or buying accounts, to risk selling anything there I can't afford to lose. And a live plant, rare or therwise is not something I would risk selling there.
There are several things that some might find offensive here, mostly due to the fact that in any crowd you will have a number that are particularly sensitive to opinions other than their own (and I'm sure in one way or another, one subject or another, we all fit that category).
I'm honestly finding this thread to be rather exhausting, and the same arguments are going around over and over with a very low amount of either side actually giving leeway to the other. I can also see both sides here: yes, eBay may not be the best place to auction off plants if you are concerned about the well-being of the plant in the end, but the propagators of plants have to make their money somewhere as well, and considering my experience half the time when attempting to sell things where they will go to more knowledgeable members of the community, the sale will be met with indifference and little attention. So where will people turn? I speak both through personal experience and witness of others.
If someone is concerned about people who are collectors rather than conservationists, might as well dump this hobby now as well. Most of us are going to end up as a mixture of both, looking to gain that new species or flashy hybrid for our personal collection but also having some aim to propagate and conserve somewhere in the mix. After all, one doesn't get the drive to save something if they don't also have a personal interest in that something as well, most of the time (unless money is involved, and then we're back to square one).
I'm honestly finding this thread to be rather exhausting, and the same arguments are going around over and over with a very low amount of either side actually giving leeway to the other. I can also see both sides here: yes, eBay may not be the best place to auction off plants if you are concerned about the well-being of the plant in the end, but the propagators of plants have to make their money somewhere as well, and considering my experience half the time when attempting to sell things where they will go to more knowledgeable members of the community, the sale will be met with indifference and little attention. So where will people turn? I speak both through personal experience and witness of others.
If someone is concerned about people who are collectors rather than conservationists, might as well dump this hobby now as well. Most of us are going to end up as a mixture of both, looking to gain that new species or flashy hybrid for our personal collection but also having some aim to propagate and conserve somewhere in the mix. After all, one doesn't get the drive to save something if they don't also have a personal interest in that something as well, most of the time (unless money is involved, and then we're back to square one).
