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Thread: Hypothetical question regarding wild plants and trespassing

  1. #41
    katya_dog1's Avatar
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    Thread opened. Very good discussion, except for the people who were wrong.

    Please, everybody, this needs to remain as civil as possible. I personally haven't ever seen much of a problem with Paul and John's posts in the past, so question/insult them at your peril, because I'm not going to close this thread because someone doesn't like to be proven wrong.

    Unless a blue person comes in, of course.....
    Sarracenia Addicted... Lover of all toothed Nepenthes.
    The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. ~ The Second Amendment

    Keep it that way.

  2. #42
    katya_dog1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eithan0693 View Post
    Living things deserve some respect, more so then the dirt they grow in that's all lol
    Guess what? Bacteria are alive as well, I don't see you saying that they deserve respect. Feel free to respond and tell me why your statement is correct.
    Sarracenia Addicted... Lover of all toothed Nepenthes.
    The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. ~ The Second Amendment

    Keep it that way.

  3. #43

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    I do actually respect bacteria? It's a very valuable part of the ecosystem. It helps break down nutrients so that my aquatic plants can absorb them again. It's essential to any digestion by humans , essential to proper water health .. all living things deserve respect. Even viruses play a role in culling out the weak organisms making for a stronger gene pool.

  4. #44
    BS Bulldozer SubRosa's Avatar
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    Let's look at the nature of force first. First of all let's get our definitions straight, we're talking about physical force brought to bear upon one person by another, or group of others.Within this framework there are 3 distinct types of force.

    Type#1, initiatory force. Example: you're walking down the street, and someone out of the blue hits you, let's say in an attempt to steal your wallet. You have done absolutely nothing wrong, and in no way deserve this to happen. In fact there is no instance whatsoever in which initiatory force is justifiable. If the perpetrator is caught and convicted he goes to jail and rightly so.

    Type #2, defensive force. Example : the guy who hit you to take your wallet is a pansy, and his blow has little effect upon you. You turn and break his jaw with a left hook, dropping him like a bad habit. Bravo! Well done, because defensive force in this, and any other instance in which it is warranted (by having force initiated upon you) is not just acceptable, it is a moral imperative, assuming you value your own life and well being above that of your attacker. On a personal note, if you don't value your life and well being above his, seek professional help!

    Type #3, retaliatory force. Example : the guy knocks you out and gets your wallet, but you recognized him and know where he lives. As soon as your head clears, you head over, kick in his door, and catching him off guard you knock him out and retrieve your wallet. This type of force is a bit tricky, because while it is a natural right to do this, as members of a society built upon laws and due process we have delegated the right to this type of force to governmental agencies, ie, police, prisons, armed forces, etc. We haven't given up the right, but in the interests of societal harmony we have these systems in place . So since within the confines of a civilized society retaliatory force is the exclusive province of the government, if you get caught you go to jail and rightly so.

    Applying this to the situation of a landowner, what is the justification for bringing force to bear against someone who has done nothing wrong except buy a piece of property that someone for some reason considers choice in some way?
    Last edited by SubRosa; 10-29-2015 at 12:28 PM.
    Judge not lest ye be judged creates a cesspool. Judge others and prepare to be judged by them.
    Just know when to keep the verdict to yourself.

  5. #45
    BS Bulldozer SubRosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eithan0693 View Post
    Emotion and pain are just electrical impulses perceived by your brain. This "awareness of self" you speak of can't even be proved due to that not every human responds to emotional stimulus the same so there for plants due to their ability to react the same to the same stimulus actually have a more advanced understanding of perception then some human beings.
    You need proof outside of your own self that you're self aware?
    Judge not lest ye be judged creates a cesspool. Judge others and prepare to be judged by them.
    Just know when to keep the verdict to yourself.

  6. #46

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    Yes I'm a scientist. I need proof for anything. That is my opinion that I need that proof to call it an absolute fact. I also understand proving that we are conscious is difficult. So is proving a plant is sentient , nemjones understood what I ment. By definition plants are sentient but by perception they are not since they do not have brains and we perceive that as different then our level of conscious. Im not arguing that the fact that plants can't think, they can't as far as am aware there is no proof to the instantaneous decision making process of a plant. In humans there is, this is how I would define what you call conscious which then I can concede that is proof to that humans are conscious. Again it's all about perception tho, that isn't necessarily physical evidence and I don't feel like arguing the nuances of the English language and metaphysics and philosophy of nature itself. Plants can't think and they do not feel the same way we do. They respond. I am merely stating that as a fact and I'm sorry that I'm been mistaken as a Crazy plant nut who thinks plants talk to him ( I don't ).

    Treaspassing is wrong stealing is wrong there's not much to that.

    Yes I stand by respecting everything , there is no harm in living a respectful life, and I'm sorry if I've acted disrespectful in any way as it seems some people don't like my opinions Hypothetical question regarding wild plants and trespassing cheers everyone enjoy your day.

  7. #47
    BS Bulldozer SubRosa's Avatar
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    The nature of rights. There are two kinds of rights, natural rights and legal rights. Strictly speaking there is one natural right, but the actual nature of human life creates ancillary rights. The fundamental natural right is the right to one's own life. But as I said the nature of that life creates several other rights, because you are given a life, but not the means to sustain it. Sustaining your life requires that you act. Doing nothing but sitting on your duff thinking about your life will get you dead in short order. So we need to have the right to take the actions necessary to sustain the life we have a right to. But it isn't really the actions that sustain us. You can plant all the food in the world, but if you don't harvest and eat it, you're just as dead as the guy sitting around pondering it all. So we have the right to keep the consequences or products of our actions. This by implication creates the last natural right, the right of self defense. Of course we have the right to defend out persons, but a right to keep the results of our actions is meaningless without the right to defend them. Now lest anyone use the "A" word to describe this state of affairs, in a just societal situation everyone has the same rights, and nobody is supposed to be allowed to violate the rights of others. Maintaining this balance is what we pay taxes for.
    Last edited by SubRosa; 10-29-2015 at 05:02 PM.
    Judge not lest ye be judged creates a cesspool. Judge others and prepare to be judged by them.
    Just know when to keep the verdict to yourself.

  8. #48
    Subsurface Lurker gnathaniel's Avatar
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    Interesting analysis of force, John, but without more I don't buy the analogy. Not all of what we call 'force' is qualitatively homogenous, nor is all we call 'property'. And even from a 'natural' rights perspective, property rights are arguably much more derived and socially constructed than are rights to bodily integrity.
    --Nat--

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