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Thread: Patented Sarracenia; What does this mean for growers?

  1. #17
    SerMuncherIV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Est View Post
    What always gets me is that cultivars are based on phenotype, not genotype (looks, not genetics directly). So even if you did manage to breed something that looks the same, unless you have some way of proving that it's genetically distinct you have the same infringement issues. Unless this has changed in the past decade or so?
    From my (admittedly limited) understanding, this is the case for some cultivars but not all...for example, cultivars such as D. capensis 'Albino' and U. reniformis 'Enfant Terrible' are based on phenotype and can be redistributed from seed, while Dionaea cultivars are baseld on genotype. I don't know the rules for Sarracenia cultivars (although I think it would be based on genotype), but there should be an annotation in the official cultivar description that was submitted to the ICPS explaining how the cultivar should be reproduced; for example, most of the Dionaea descriptions note that the cultivar should "only be reproduced through asexual means to retain its unique characteristics."
    Last edited by SerMuncherIV; 01-04-2016 at 09:42 PM.

  2. #18
    Whimgrinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zath View Post
    So, what you're saying is: "I like the way the cultivar looks enough to spend several years of my life and hundreds of dollars attempting to breed a Sarr that looks just like it, so that I can distribute it freely among friends, than spend $30 (or less) to obtain a specimen which I am obligated to keep to myself until 2022."?
    That's what I'm getting from the discussion, yes. I can't imagine a less worthwhile pursuit, frankly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruzzfish View Post
    Yeah, but you can't distribute clones of that one. Any children that one has can be distributed.


    And Whimgrinder, you'd only have crippling inbreeding issues in animals. Plants are much, much more capable of handling that, and the few that are notably effected wouldn't be cloned from. All you need is just one that looks like the parent. In other plant communities, selfing them is actually a requirement for eight generations in order to say you have new strain.
    Plants are not immune to inbreeding issues, I guarantee you. My twenty years experience in some genera have illustrated this beautifully. No, its not the same as animal breeding, but there are some of the same problems to be encountered.

  3. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zath View Post
    So, what you're saying is: "I like the way the cultivar looks enough to spend several years of my life and hundreds of dollars attempting to breed a Sarr that looks just like it, so that I can distribute it freely among friends, than spend $30 (or less) to obtain a specimen which I am obligated to keep to myself until 2022."?
    Not spend hundreds. Just polinate it once with itself and pick the kid that looks close enough. Knowing what happens in my bog garden, that would occur either way.




    @Whimgrinder
    Trust me, I'm aware that plants can have inbreeding issues. It was important enough that Nepenthes aren't even capable of it, and that at least some Amorphophallus do their best not to. It's just that they can handle much, much more before they're noticeably effected by it because they aren't centralized enough to be killed by a birth defect, although their lack of immunity to disease is probably a bigger factor. They can handle a lot of weird stuff that would kill an animal too, such as polyploidy, which I'm experimenting on D. adelae with starting either tomorrow or Thursday.
    Last edited by Cruzzfish; 01-04-2016 at 10:27 PM.

  4. #20
    Benurmanii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruzzfish View Post
    @Whimgrinder
    Trust me, I'm aware that plants can have inbreeding issues. It was important enough that Nepenthes aren't even capable of it, and that at least some Amorphophallus do their best not to. It's just that they can handle much, much more before they're noticeably effected by it because they aren't centralized enough to be killed by a birth defect, although their lack of immunity to disease is probably a bigger factor. They can handle a lot of weird stuff that would kill an animal too, such as polyploidy, which I'm experimenting on D. adelae with starting either tomorrow or Thursday.
    If plants had immune systems, our lives as hobbyists would be so much easier! Also, this is off-topic from the point of the thread, but I was unsure if inbreeding affects Nepenthes detrimentally. Why would it not cause problems for them, but could still cause problems for other plants (man, plant genetics seems so much more complex than animal genetics).

    Edit: ignore the part I said about Nepenthes inbreeding, I misread "aren't even capable of it".
    Last edited by Benurmanii; 01-04-2016 at 11:19 PM.

  5. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benurmanii View Post
    If plants had immune systems, our lives as hobbyists would be so much easier!
    I think it would be quite scary if they didn't. Unfortunately, we only notice it when it does something bad. But it's less that the immune system will fight it off as much as it is that x virus or bacteria simply can't infect the plant, just like how plant viruses won't harm us. I did realize that there might be a way to self pollinate Nepenthes though. They can apparently change sex, so if you took a cutting and that cutting changed sex and was then bred with the original plant, that might kinda count.

  6. #22
    Benurmanii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruzzfish View Post
    I think it would be quite scary if they didn't. Unfortunately, we only notice it when it does something bad. But it's less that the immune system will fight it off as much as it is that x virus or bacteria simply can't infect the plant, just like how plant viruses won't harm us. I did realize that there might be a way to self pollinate Nepenthes though. They can apparently change sex, so if you took a cutting and that cutting changed sex and was then bred with the original plant, that might kinda count.
    I meant more along the lines of our complex immune systems. It would be wonderful if they could fight off fungus infections like we fight off the flu!

    Also, I had not known that neps could change their sex like that, very interesting!

  7. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benurmanii View Post
    I meant more along the lines of our complex immune systems. It would be wonderful if they could fight off fungus infections like we fight off the flu!

    Also, I had not known that neps could change their sex like that, very interesting!
    What would be really nice is if they fought off mites. I hate mites. They eat everything, and carnivores don't like most of the treatments.

    And I didn't know neps could sex change either. Then there was a thread here about someone asking why their nep was a female all of a sudden.

    It was Whimgrinder's actually.

    Next on Springer: "My Nepenthes is a TRANNY!"

  8. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruzzfish View Post
    And I didn't know neps could sex change either. Then there was a thread here about someone asking why their nep was a female all of a sudden.

    It was Whimgrinder's actually.

    Next on Springer: "My Nepenthes is a TRANNY!"
    I wasn't asking why, I was just offering my documentation as proof that what was rumored to be true was in fact possible. The female vogelii has been pollinated by the male several months ago and I've inspected the contents of one pod: it appears there will be approximately 20% of the seeds with embryos.
    However, we cannot state that this is a selfing because I have no proof that these two plants are the same clone. I'm not even sure they are both BE clones - though I strongly suspect they both are. But BE vogelii are a swarm of many individuals, so the odds are these two plants are distinct, but related.
    Last edited by Whimgrinder; 01-05-2016 at 08:28 AM.

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