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Thread: That "other" nursery

  1. #17

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    Once again, all those posts are from 1995-1996.

    Quote
    Finally, that nursery sells 10+ year old bulbs. NOW.. if this doesn't convince you... nothing will:

    Tissue culture of flytraps has not been around long enough in quantity for ANYONE to have a 10+ year old venus flytrap bulb that has grown out from TC. It's JUST NOT POSSIBLE. Though culture was available, it is EXTREMEMLY unlikely that they invested the money in culturing 10 years ago... especially when it was somewhat acceptable to field collect at that time. So it's JUST NOT POSSIBLE. We have a few 5,6,7 year old plants on our hands... but that's even pretty rare... [/QUOTE]

    The company has been in business since 1955. Times have changed, even if he field collected then, doesn't mean he does now. So, if it was acceptable 10 years ago to field collect, I would think he would have 10 year old VFT bulbs.

    Now, all these plants we grow have had to come from the wild at one time. Times have changed from where humans had no concern for the environment around them. If they wanted to do something, they did. Now, we have to watch what we do because it impacts our environment more so than every before. Just because someone once did something, doesn't mean they still do it.

    As for his book and mention of field collecting. Times have changed, he grew up in a time when it was acceptable to do so. It was not seen as anything wrong. People use to hunt elephants for sport, kill buffalo, use whale oil, unmanaged mass fishing, and stripping the land of trees without replanting. We have stopped hunting elephants for fun and stopped using whale oil. Fishing has become managed to keep populations up, and lands that have been cut for timber have been replanted to prevent soil erosion and to replenish the land.

    So, for all you nursery owners who have replied. I noticed you are all newer than he is. So, you grew up in a different time or started your business at a different time. 1988 and 1998 are 33+ years after PP was started. A lot changes in 33 years.

    As for not selling to Peter Pauls. Perhaps someone realized that the past ways have changed, field collecting is not acceptable anymore, and it was now time to do business differently.

    A question:

    Why do plants have to be TC to be acceptable for resale? There are other methods of propagation.
    Nick

    Careful where you crawl, it might be a trap!

    http://www.carnivorium.com
    http://www.buckeyecarnivores.com

  2. #18
    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    Well I guess I was wrong in my other post that it was the last one I was going to make.. THIS is the last one.

    Call him up and ask if all his plants are from artificially propagated stock. Call him up and ask to come see his nursery.

    Stop ignoring the fact that it is impossible to offer the plants he does at the prices he does on purely 100% artificially propagated stock. Whether they are from TC, cuttings, seed or anything else OTHER than removed from the wild LEGALLY or ILLEGALLY.

    You are free to spend your money where ever you want, and believe whatever you like. I do hope you see that there is something very fishy with PeterPauls even to this day. Regardless of his past business practices. One member of this forum has even said they have been personally contacted more than once by not one but two nurseries trying to get people to collect plants for them. Collecting plants from the wild is a strong healthy business to this day.
    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  3. #19

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    Cool

    I'm not sure if what I'm going to say will be constructive to the discussion, but I think that I should say it nonetheless.

    Nick

    You make several good points in your posts, however, there is a difference between possibility and probability.

    Itís possible that PPN has had a field of vfts in their back yard for 20+ years where they get their 10+ year old rhizomes. Itís also possible that PPN buys plants from overseas in extremely high number to sell them so cheap. It is also possible that in 6 years PPN has reconciled with itís clientele and the rest of the CP community, and is now a good business.

    I do not, however, think that any of these possibilities are sufficiently probable to merit eliminating PPNís bad reputation. The defense that you give for PPN stands on a very thin line. I believe in the benefit of the doubt, but in this case, IMO, you are stretching it too much.

    Your faith in PPN is based on 2 good experiences, not enough to conclusively say that they have mended their ways.

    Júl

    (I would write more, but Iím not eloquent enought to say it right)
    http://homepage.mac.com/mindmaze128/...lood forum.jpg
    Joel MartŪnez
    San Juan, Puerto Rico, USA

  4. #20

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    Now, lets say that I have a 4+ acre bog in my back yard and it has the capability of producing 10000+ venus flytraps a year. Now, from what I understand, it is illegal to collect these things, unless it is on ones own property. So, it would be legal for me to sell the 10000 plants on my own property. If this is true, why wouldn't I use this bog to produce plants for resale. Each year cuttings or divisions would be used to restock the production bog.

    Do any of you know if there are any privately owned bogs that are in production of VFT bulbs? What I am getting at here is that it is possible that VFTs are being farmed just like corn, wheat, etc. Someone could have a large bog, or several people can have bogs, and be farming the plants. Selling 1000s of VFTs and then replanting the harvested sections of the bog. If one has 1 acre of such land, they have that right to do so and can produce large amounts of VFTs.

    What I see here is that everyone is against taking a plant from the wild. If its private property, the owner has the right to do what he wants on his land. If filling in a bog is what he wants to do, then they do it. To me, it would be more productive to use that bog to produce more plants. If you have a pond in your back yard, natural or man made, why not stock it with native fish for people to eat? If someone has a bog that otherwise is no use to them, why shouldn't they be able to use it to farm carnivorous plants ( better than filling it in ). Sphagnum moss is harvested and allowed to re-grow before the same section is re-harvested ( better management methods than in the past ).

    Isn't it possible there are VFT farms that are not being recognized as such because people say they are field collecting their plants. I believe people are doing just that. Someone makes some extra money of what their land can produce naturally.

    As for the people being contacted to collect plants. I am glad you did not take up the offer.

    I see a big problem with the term "field collecting". People grow crops in fields. So, by the term "field collecting", one can get confused. Corn and beans are field collected because they grow in fields. We don't tissue culture corn and beans, its just not cost effective. What is wrong with the owner of a bog putting that bog into a harvesting routine and sell the plants produced? This method keeps plants growing in the bog at different stages producing many different ages of bulbs for resale.

    I am not for poaching plants. I am saying that it is legal for people to turn a naturally occurring bog into productive land or otherwise. They do this by either filling in the bog or turning the bog into a renewable source of income by selling field cultivated plants.

    For me to visit the nursery it would be 408.8 miles, 8 hours 12 min one way. Possible on a weekend.

    This quote is taken from the Carnivorous Plant Discussion board in regards to field collecting (should be called poaching). http://www.ourcpsite.com/wwwboard/messages/452.html
    Quote
    I have heard this too, but alot of the people complaining feel that *any* field collecting should be illegal. I think that more than half their(Peter Paul's) troubles are with over-zealous ultra environmentalists.[/QUOTE]

    ICPS only has two posts in the archives about Peter Pauls. None stating problems.

    Quote

    Wed, 11 Aug 1999

    [snip] They get it [ sphagnum moss ]from a bog there in Canadiagua. There's another privately
    owned bog in Mendon, NY where some collecting is allowed, if you are
    willing to seed the collecting site. The Mendon bog is open to the
    public, but monitored. The Canadaigua bog is not accessible to the
    public, nor university students, except by special arrangement. I
    have seen a lot of anger here about using natural bogs as plant
    sources. While I don't want any more of them drained, I think that
    using them for cp production is a way to keep the private owners
    interested in maintaining them. If Peter pauls couldn't use private
    bogs, I KNOW the Canadaigua one would have been drained for mosquito
    control in '72. As it has been, several privately owned bogs generate
    money for their owners, and have survived development.

    I'm a conservationist. BUT first, I'm realistic. New York State has
    thousands of bogs, and the state is not going to buy nor manage them
    all.[snip][/QUOTE]
    Nick

    Careful where you crawl, it might be a trap!

    http://www.carnivorium.com
    http://www.buckeyecarnivores.com

  5. #21

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    Perhaps times have changed, but in the late 70's I personally visited this nursery. I was offered .50 a head by the owner to collect Sarracenia seed pods, and the owner also tried to offer inducements of rare material in trade if I did this. Although Sarracenia were not at that time were not protected (and still aren't), I can assure you that habitat impact was as real then as it is now, and this person was well aware of the fact. It just didn't matter. Whether it was "legal" does not enter into the issue as far as I am concerned! It was not ethical then or now, and the owner knew this. His comments of how "all cultivated plants were originally field collected" was/is pure BS. There is a vast difference between sensitive INITIAL collection, and the continuing wholesale rape of habitat. Perhaps the owner felt the condemnation of the CP community and has altered his business strategies, but I for one doubt very much that their profit margin would allow them to stay in business for so long if this were the case. In any event, this practice whether current or former, has ensured that I will NEVER do business with the likes of them. Is it really worth it, to save a few measley bucks? BAH! Do as you will, but please spare me the continuing pain of this misplaced defense. What we have done in the past makes us what we are now, and consequence of past actions does come home eventually.
    "Grow More, Share More"

  6. #22

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    Hey, you don't have to read what I post!
    Nick

    Careful where you crawl, it might be a trap!

    http://www.carnivorium.com
    http://www.buckeyecarnivores.com

  7. #23

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    Wink

    Well, I am done with is thread. The information I needed has been collected. Thanks for the posts and follow-ups.

    I have other things to worry about now. My father-in-law just went into intensive care.

    Hope everyone has a good holiday weekend.

    Thanks,

    Nick
    Nick

    Careful where you crawl, it might be a trap!

    http://www.carnivorium.com
    http://www.buckeyecarnivores.com

  8. #24
    BoooOOOOooooo!!!!! unknownclown's Avatar
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    Quote
    Now, lets say that I have a 4+ acre bog in my back yard and it has the capability of producing 10000+ venus flytraps a year. Now, from what I understand, it is illegal to collect these things, unless it is on ones own property. So, it would be legal for me to sell the 10000 plants on my own property. If this is true, why wouldn't I use this bog to produce plants for resale. Each year cuttings or divisions would be used to restock the production bog.
    [/QUOTE]
    That my friend would be illegal [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img] these plants are protected even on your own property the same rules apply. Believe it or not a property owner does not have the right to do what ever with thier own property especially when they are wetlands they are very protected as well as the plants and you have to get permits and such to mess with them. Now that that doesnt mean that people will abide by the laws and resist the urge to poach from thier own land #### Im a retired thief I can go on all day tellin you people steal and don't give #### about laws. I was even hired on to steal cars for chop shops so I can tell you from the other side of the law that more than likely if somebody were dumb enough and it were thier first offense that that would get a slap on the wrist no judge would convict a person of that. Not when they could fill thier jails full of "real criminals." They would take a plea bargain any day and the charge would probably be dropped to trasspassing if they werent on thier own property or some measly distruction of property both misdemeanors which hardly show up on a record. Not to mention how in the heck would anybody notice somebody raping thier own property? Now I've heard they hire people to do it and its not like these places are gaurded 24-7 heck they even grow along the road I could easilly go park my car along the highway pop my hood to make it look like I was stranded put a tool box near the area and fill it up. Who would know? Who would care? People wouldn't notice they are tryin to get to work or home. So I'm sure more than possitive that just because a person poaches plants that doesnt automatically give them a record you could look up. Heck it's like shop lifting with no shop, you would have to be an imbusile to get busted on that easy job.

    Word of advice... always stick to word of mouth like Phil said they are in the business and hear stuff also you can't get more reputable on the subject than the ICPS they have better things to do than just picking a nursery outta the blue and trashing thier reputation. Now just because you don't personally don't see the evidence and refuse to take heed on everybodys advice you are no different from those who bought cars off of me and looked the other way. In my eyes you have all the facts just like they did and you're looking the otherway because we got away with it.
    I am the weirdo who sits next to you on the bus!

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