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Thread: That "other" nursery

  1. #33

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    I will not comment on another nursery operation, even if I have certain knowledge, I will post some general things that should be known by some of the new cp growers.

    As a wholesale grower I can tell you first hand that the USA is lagging behind in tissue culture production of Sarracenia. We work directly with establishing these plants in 2 large commercial labs. The failure rate has been high, to date. Far behind some European and Australian operations. We are catching on, but there is a reason why we are so far behind.

    ..Field collected plants continue to make up the bulk and ease of supplying cheap pitcher plants here in the United States, it is that simple.

    This year failures of a few years work include S. flava once again and several new hybrid cultivars, including Adrian Slack. Once again these plants will be introduced into vitro and we will try. In the United States home of the Sarracenia not all species have even been tried in tissuce culture, yet this isn't true in Australia. All species are successful in tc.

    Tony P as usual makes the most sense here with his words. Nursery operation even on a small scale is expensive, Sarracenia or other cp are specialty crops deserving even more attention, that means $$ labor when compared to many other types of horticulture.

    Having a natural bog to promote and grow your own plants for trade doesn't work, growing these herbaceous plants directly in a bog area results in the same type of plant you would have if you dug one from the wild, this isn't a nursery propagated container plant. In natural soils it will react differently than in a pot, as well it can be exposed to natural predator such as insect or disease that is very difficult to combat. I am talking about this type of operation in a natural southern location, not 1,200 miles north or west of the natural range where climate would further reduce season, and out put of marketable stock. You can not count on Sarracenia from the gulf coast growing in a way to make a nursery profit outdoors in a bog type garden in New York or Michigan, not going to happen the winter season are more harsh and extended, summers short and offer various cool spells which can stunt the season further. Rasing commercial nursery product is a investment.

    Again as Tony points out $3.95 is not a realistic retail price for nursery grown Sarracenia in the United States. This price
    is below some of my wholesale prices for bare root stock, profit margins are razor slim and disater such as bugs or fungal infection can take out the whole seasons work leaving one with no return.

    I have seen first hand and sold with people offering field collected Sarracenia while I struggle to develop them as a nursery trade. It is upsetting as they have no investment in the plants other than digging them up and throwing them in a pot. While I have grown them as a crop such as any commercial agricultural grower. Applying pesticide (which ain't cheap), there is a slow return on ones labor with growing plants out from seed or tc compared to field collected stock.
    I am not going to debate the merits of field collecting. I certainly have taken plants from the field in years past. I have been growing these plants since 1974, and have been in the field directly and seen field collecting in mass. I have seen men walking in rows in the Green Swamp of NC with pillow cases plucking VFT, Pings, & Drosera. When they spotted us they ran, but we caught up and talked. They were poor men from the local area and collecting plants as a good source of making fast cash. This is understandable, and you can bet this goes on today as we discuss this.

    I can tell you old wholesale operations such as Tote`em Zoo in Wilmington NC collected hundreds of thousands of native cp throughout the 70's & 80's. Northrops Insectivorous Plant Farm was a heavy hitter at that time with field collected material. These operations are no longer in business, but
    Even now there is one operation I know of that has state permits to legally collect native NC plants for the trade.

    It is not the point that they are legally collected, but field collected plants overall are inferior in quality compared to a container grown plant. Do not doubt this, if you ever bring in a field collected plant to your private collection with the Sarracenia root borer in the rhizome you will have some extreme problems that will endanger all of your Sarracenia.

    With time we are seeing improvements regarding nursery quality and size with Sarracenia. Rob Sacilotto & Philip Sheridan both are fine growers of nursery propagated Sarracenia in the southeast/mid Atlantic. Dean Cook offers excellent stock though I have less contact and first hand knowledge of west coast growers I don't doubt others are out there.

    I personally have been asked to collect Pingicula pumila and other plants in Florida in the early 90's.

    Decide where you want to buy your plants and make sure the operator clearly states how the plants are obtained, or grown.
    I have never seen a field collected plant act as good in a pot as a nursery propagated plant.

    A good deal of my seed stock, and plants being trialed for tc are grown in a in ground field operation, but they are not the plants that will end up being sold, because of the reasons stated above,

    Its time to Labor today,

    Mike
    St. Petersburg Florida
    [b] ~ Mike

  2. #34

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    Mike, thanks for your thoughtful input. It goes a long way [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

    Noah, the refusal to sell the plants to the 'other' nursery came on the heels of us asking how they obtained their other stock... and at the same time offering them TC stock ov typical VFT for roughly .60 per bulb. I did this to help change the path of what the nursery was doing... I did this to encourage them and tell them that they could get nice healthy TC plants for $.60 each. THAT is when I was told TC is too expensive (SIXTY CENTS, TOO EXPENSIVE?[img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img]??&#33[img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img]. At that point, we declined to do business with them. By us not selling them cephs or r. dragons was not going to instantly send them into the fields to collect... because that's not possible with those plants. Rather, our dealings would have been just to satisfy the company and expand their availability ... so, as someone comes on there to purchase a harvested plant... they too can purchase a red dragon, or whatever.

    That was my point... and believe me, we thought about it long and hard... to come up with reasonable logic on whether or not to do business with them.
    Phillip J. Crane
    Austin, TX

  3. #35
    Nepenthes Specialist nepenthes gracilis's Avatar
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    I was told TC is too expensive [/QUOTE]

    The equipment is expensive Phil. As most of you know I hope to have a tiny home business with a few CP's to offer and I was thinking of doing TC but it is just too complicated and expensive (for the equipment) and I decide to just grow everything from seed for the time being.

    After reading this over and over and over. I have just a few words to say. I am never going to buy from Peter Pauls (they are too expensive anyways, $30.00 for an N.Gracilis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/img] idiots) And he lies, everything I have heard quotes from him are lies and/or sidetracking nonsense statements.

    Also I have a question, you guys say that artifically propagated plants should only be bought correct? SO your saying I cannot sell my seed grown S.Purpurea now?

  4. #36
    Admin- I'm growing CPs in the Desert of Tucson, Az. adnedarn's Avatar
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    Quote
    Also I have a question, you guys say that artificially propagated plants should only be bought correct? SO your saying I cannot sell my seed grown S.Purpurea now?[/QUOTE]
    I would say a plant that you have grown by seed. being that it was grown by you I would consider that being artificially propagated. if it wasn't fully natural then it is artificial right?? so I would say the sale of this is ok. and the seed is probably(?) from an artificially propagated plant.
    lates,
    Andrew
    basically don't sell field collected plants. that is wrong.

    oh and phil didn't want to sell him the equipment. he offered to sell plants which they had grown from tc for a good price so they could get out of the field collected plants and begin selling these artificially propagated plants... to help.
    -Andrew
    Owner of TerraForums, FlyTrapShop.com, and cpforums.org.
    Support FlyTrapShop, support TerraForums! www.flytrapshop.com

  5. #37

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    N.G. :

    Even if you tossed seed into a bog or something at your house... and decided to sell it, to me, that's cool. It's when people go out and seek places where these plants grow naturally, and pull them up to sell.

    We're installing a bog right now next to our pond... believe me.. if the sarr. drop seed and grow, we'll at the very least trade them, as they are not being taken from the wild.
    Phillip J. Crane
    Austin, TX

  6. #38
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    you know, this discussion reminds me of another one we had once... where one side just refused to be wrong, ignored all the other sides arguments, and continued spouting, forgive me, crap.

    1) We have first hand reports of people being approached by this nursery for field collection (I ask you, is there much differeance between 50 cents and 60? NO! there is not, 10 cents more profit for field collecting is just pure greed.)

    2) You have heard evidence that the nursery can not support those prices with legal/ethical activity, this is most telling beyond anything.

    3)You said noo ne ever complained about getting a wrong plant, WRONG. I have, it took him 3 months to rectify the situation once it was discovered, and there was a big discussion on it on this forum, some of the oldtimers probalby remomber it.

    The plain and simple truth is, that if you support this nursery, then you support raping a natural resource. IN the last few years several instances of entire bogs being raped clean have been reported, I don't know that PPN was responsible, more likely a 3rd party was, but the practice is out there, and it wouldn't suprise me in the least if they ended up in someones hands... maybe yours? you don't know unless you buy from a reputable source.

    I wish I had seen all this sooner... All I can say now is I am just disgusted. Plain and simple, as I think 99% of the people here are.

    Oh, and one more thing...

    it's painfully obvious from your own photo that the sar has no active growth on it, didn't you say it had leaves? All I see is a rhiozome...

    Why did you even post this garbage here? You want to redeem this nursery on the forums of another nursery in the same business? That is just plain rude at best, lacking in tact and class at worst.



    \"Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: \"Mankind\". Basically, it\'s made up of two separate words - \"mank\" and \"ind\". What do these words mean ? It\'s a mystery, and that\'s why so is mankind.\" ~ Jack Handey

  7. #39

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    Check-Mate! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] (yes, I'm still watching. LOL)
    To live we must learn to forgive.

  8. #40

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    Phew, i think we all can call this a skirmish and a half? aehh Well i just wanted to say, this one thing that regarded to this "Quote"
    Quote
    Also I have a question, you guys say that artifically propagated plants should only be bought correct? SO your saying I cannot sell my seed grown S.Purpurea now?
    [/QUOTE]

    Propagation, defines as follow:
    prop·a·gate Pronunciation Key (prp-gt)
    v. prop·a·gat·ed, prop·a·gat·ing, prop·a·gates
    v. tr.
    To cause (an organism) to multiply or breed.
    To breed (offspring).
    To transmit (characteristics) from one generation to another.
    To cause to extend to a broader area or larger number; spread: missionaries who propagate the faith.
    To make widely known; publicize: propagate a rumor.
    Physics. To cause (a wave, for example) to move in some direction or through a medium; transmit.

    v. intr.
    To have offspring; multiply.
    To extend to a broader area or larger number; spread.
    Physics. To move through a medium

    so what you are doing is propagation, Well anyways, I Really want Everyone TO be REALLY HAPPY! as for damnit people it is labor day! 3 day weekend for most of us!!! RAISE THE ROOF! but anyways, watching all these posts, is quite entertaining... and yet disgruntling.... and yet some how tactfully tastey?[img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img] Wahat that made no sense... never mind that.. what we need here, are facial expressions such as these: [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] , None of these facial expressions: [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/img] .... you know... Well maybe i shouldnt have said anything.. but i just wanted to add just a bit of humor, int he big vat of emotional feeling here.... but you probably thinks i have drank soem nepenthes juice or soemthing.. by the way my typing is sllluuurrred... and by my crazy antics.. i cant say i have drank any recently before this post... though... mUhhahahahaha!

    Remember HAPPY/CRAZY Not MaD/CrAzY..... Kadoek

    Jim [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img]
    Just a capsule of energy brought on this umbrageous oak I see.
    -Jim

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