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That "other" nursery

  • #21
Perhaps times have changed, but in the late 70's I personally visited this nursery. I was offered .50 a head by the owner to collect Sarracenia seed pods, and the owner also tried to offer inducements of rare material in trade if I did this. Although Sarracenia were not at that time were not protected (and still aren't), I can assure you that habitat impact was as real then as it is now, and this person was well aware of the fact. It just didn't matter. Whether it was "legal" does not enter into the issue as far as I am concerned! It was not ethical then or now, and the owner knew this. His comments of how "all cultivated plants were originally field collected" was/is pure BS. There is a vast difference between sensitive INITIAL collection, and the continuing wholesale rape of habitat. Perhaps the owner felt the condemnation of the CP community and has altered his business strategies, but I for one doubt very much that their profit margin would allow them to stay in business for so long if this were the case. In any event, this practice whether current or former, has ensured that I will NEVER do business with the likes of them. Is it really worth it, to save a few measley bucks? BAH! Do as you will, but please spare me the continuing pain of this misplaced defense. What we have done in the past makes us what we are now, and consequence of past actions does come home eventually.
 
  • #22
Hey, you don't have to read what I post!
 
  • #23
Well, I am done with is thread. The information I needed has been collected. Thanks for the posts and follow-ups.

I have other things to worry about now. My father-in-law just went into intensive care.

Hope everyone has a good holiday weekend.

Thanks,

Nick
 
  • #24
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now, lets say that I have a 4+ acre bog in my back yard and it has the capability of producing 10000+ venus flytraps a year. Now, from what I understand, it is illegal to collect these things, unless it is on ones own property. So, it would be legal for me to sell the 10000 plants on my own property. If this is true, why wouldn't I use this bog to produce plants for resale. Each year cuttings or divisions would be used to restock the production bog.
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That my friend would be illegal
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these plants are protected even on your own property the same rules apply. Believe it or not a property owner does not have the right to do what ever with thier own property especially when they are wetlands they are very protected as well as the plants and you have to get permits and such to mess with them. Now that that doesnt mean that people will abide by the laws and resist the urge to poach from thier own land #### Im a retired thief I can go on all day tellin you people steal and don't give #### about laws. I was even hired on to steal cars for chop shops so I can tell you from the other side of the law that more than likely if somebody were dumb enough and it were thier first offense that that would get a slap on the wrist no judge would convict a person of that. Not when they could fill thier jails full of "real criminals." They would take a plea bargain any day and the charge would probably be dropped to trasspassing if they werent on thier own property or some measly distruction of property both misdemeanors which hardly show up on a record. Not to mention how in the heck would anybody notice somebody raping thier own property? Now I've heard they hire people to do it and its not like these places are gaurded 24-7 heck they even grow along the road I could easilly go park my car along the highway pop my hood to make it look like I was stranded put a tool box near the area and fill it up. Who would know? Who would care? People wouldn't notice they are tryin to get to work or home. So I'm sure more than possitive that just because a person poaches plants that doesnt automatically give them a record you could look up. Heck it's like shop lifting with no shop, you would have to be an imbusile to get busted on that easy job.

Word of advice... always stick to word of mouth like Phil said they are in the business and hear stuff also you can't get more reputable on the subject than the ICPS they have better things to do than just picking a nursery outta the blue and trashing thier reputation. Now just because you don't personally don't see the evidence and refuse to take heed on everybodys advice you are no different from those who bought cars off of me and looked the other way. In my eyes you have all the facts just like they did and you're looking the otherway because we got away with it.
 
  • #25
North Carolina Regulations on Rare Carnivorous Plants
(as of April 2000---updates appreciated)

Sarracenia oreophila, S. jonesii (S. rubra subsp. jonesii), Dionaea muscipula (Venus flytrap), and Utricularia olivacea are legally protected species under the North Carolina Plant Protection and Conservation Act. The Act is administered through the Plant Conservation Program in the NC Department of Agriculture. The Act states that it is unlawful "to possess any protected plant, or part thereof, which was obtained in violation of this Article or any rule adopted thereunder."

Convicted violators are fined $100-$500 for a first offense, $500-$1000 for subsequent convictions. "Each illegal movement or distribution of a protected plant shall constitute a separate violation," says the Act, and for continued violations the court may determine that each day in violation constitutes a separate violation. Also, for second or subsequent violations, the Plant Conservation Board may levy a civil fine of up to $2,000.

Venus flytrap is listed under the Act as "Special Concern" (i.e. not endangered or threatened, but entitled to regulatory protection because their exploitation could get them to the endangered-threatened stage). Regulations define Venus flytrap as "Any plant of the species Dionaea muscipula INCLUDING CUTTINGS, ROOTS, FRUITS, SEEDS, PROPAGULES OR ANY OTHER PLANT PART" [emphasis added] and state,

(b1) Venus Flytraps may not be uprooted, dug, taken or otherwise disturbed or removed for any purpose from the lands of another without a written permit from the owner which is dated and valid for no more than 180 days except that the incidental disturbance of protected plants during agricultural, forestry or development operations is not illegal so long as the plants are not collected for sale or barter.

(b2) Venus Flytraps may not be uprooted, dug, taken or otherwise disturbed or removed for any purpose from public lands in North Carolina without a written permit from the agency which is responsible for administration for such public lands. [At this time, no public agency is issuing flytrap-collecting permits at all, so in effect flytraps cannot be lawfully collected from public lands.]

(b3) The Replanting of Flytraps. All persons collecting flytraps from the wild are encouraged to plant the seeds of collected plants, if any, in the immediate vicinity of where they are found.

(b4) Any person collecting flytraps on the lands of another shall, at time of collection, have on their person written permission from the landowner, as required under G.S. 106-202.19(1). [i.e., (b1) above]

(b5) Possession of freshly dug Venus Flytraps on the lands of another shall constitute prima facie evidence that the plants were taken from the same land on which the collector was found.

(c1) No person may sell or offer for sale Venus Flytraps unless they have been lawfully collected, propagated from lawfully obtained stock plants or seed, or collected from one's own land.

Besides the requirement of landowner's permission, anyone selling or exporting VFT's needs a Collected Plant Certificate and/or a Nursery Dealer Certificate from the NC Dept. of Ag. Plant Protection Section, in accordance with our Plant Pest Law.
 
  • #26
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hey, you don't have to read what I post![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Actually we do thats part of a mods and in Phils case owners job to read all of the posts.
Now if you are happy with your plants because they were packaged ok and werent followed to your house by cops with thier sirens on cudos for you but to argue a case without hearing or paying attention to the facts is ignorance and I wish I had you for a judge years ago
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  • #27
I don't know why we have to talk about a nursery that had a history of selling plants that were collected from the wild and there is no differnt if it from privete or public lands. I think not buying from them is the right way.
If you Nick like to do so and save few $$$ do what you like I hope the rest of us wouldn't.
seems to me like you try to bring this topic up and send people to buy from PPN. I sure most of us can have better places to get plants from that we sure aren't wild collected.
and if any owner of land have some CP in his land which he want to get reed of I do hope he could find a way to transfer them to other area's or botanical gardens.
Arie
 
  • #28
Hey...I think I found a new way to have fun here! I can help start things and sit back and watch all of you duke it out for awhile. What entertainment! 
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  • #29
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps times have changed, but in the late 70's I personally visited this nursery.  I was offered .50 a head by the owner to collect Sarracenia seed pods, and the owner also tried to offer inducements of rare material in trade if I did this.  Although Sarracenia were not at that time were not protected (and still aren't), I can assure you that habitat impact was as real then as it is now, and this person was well aware of the fact.  It just didn't matter.  Whether it was "legal" does not enter into the issue as far as I am concerned!  It was not ethical then or now, and the owner knew this.  His comments of how "all cultivated plants were originally field collected" was/is  pure BS.  There is a vast difference between sensitive INITIAL  collection, and the continuing wholesale rape of habitat.  Perhaps the owner felt the condemnation of the CP community and has altered his business strategies, but I for one doubt very much that their profit margin would allow them to stay in business for so long if this were the case.  In any event, this practice whether current or former, has ensured that I will NEVER do business with the likes of them.  Is it really worth it, to save a few measley bucks?  BAH!  Do as you will, but please spare me the continuing pain of this misplaced defense.  What we have done in the past makes us what we are now, and consequence of past actions does come home eventually. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know why we have to talk about a nursery that had a history of selling plants that were collected from the wild and there is no differnt if it from privete or public lands. I think not buying from them is the right way.
If you Nick like to do so and save few $$$ do what you like I hope the rest of us wouldn't.
seems to me like you try to bring this topic up and send people to buy from PPN. I sure most of us can have better places to get plants from that we sure aren't wild collected.
and if any owner of land have some CP in his land which he want to get reed of I do hope he could find a way to transfer them to other area's or botanical gardens.
Arie[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
arie, tamlin  you guys are my favorite mods today.  you have said exactly what i have been thinking sice this topic came up.  thanks for speaking my mind.
lates,
andrew
(actually you all are doing a great job! makes me feel good that this is the type of people that i am trading with (for the most part
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  • #30
Let me get this straight. We have a nursery which has no way of producing plants on their own (as they never have) and so are forced (in their own opinion) to field collect to get plants if they want to make the profit which they are making. Thus, since we don't support field collecting so we refuse to sell them tc plants as another alternative. I just don't get the logic. Would'nt it be better to sell them tc plants and save the ones in nature?? I say if pp wants to resell tc plants let them. It's better then them selling field collected plants. Is there some harm (that would come from this) that I just don't see?

-noah
 
  • #31
Noah, the plants they wanted to purchase were Red Dragon VFTs and Cephalotus.  Neither of them grow in the wild in the USA.  Welll...a few Red Dragons might but they'd be scarcer than hens teeth.  Cephalotus are an Australian species and therefor not found in the wild here in the USA.  They are most easily bought from another nursery.
 
  • #32
Hi Nick and all the others,
When we visited Atlanta botanical garden last month, we were informed about a stand of Sarracenia rubra ssp. jonesii being completely stripped of all the plants there, likewise another bog of oreophila. These were managed sites by ABG and from a conservation point of view a disaster. All I can say is boycott places which does not offer artificially propagated material. Its as simple as that. If PPN cannot guarentee that, then buy from places like Petflytrap etc which does tissue culture etc, that way you support a sustainable CP supply.
 
  • #33
I will not comment on another nursery operation, even if I have certain knowledge, I will post some general things that should be known by some of the new cp growers.

As a wholesale grower I can tell you first hand that the USA is lagging behind in tissue culture production of Sarracenia.  We work directly with establishing these plants in 2 large commercial labs.  The failure rate has been high, to date.  Far behind some European and Australian operations.  We are catching on, but there is a reason why we are so far behind.

..Field collected plants continue to make up the bulk and ease of supplying cheap pitcher plants here in the United States, it is that simple.

This year failures of a few years work include S. flava once again and several new hybrid cultivars, including Adrian Slack.  Once again these plants will be introduced into vitro and we will try.  In the United States home of the Sarracenia not all species have even been tried in tissuce culture, yet this isn't true in Australia.  All species are successful in tc.

Tony P as usual makes the most sense here with his words.  Nursery operation even on a small scale is expensive, Sarracenia or other cp are specialty crops deserving even more attention, that means $$ labor when compared to many other types of horticulture.

Having a natural bog to promote and grow your own plants for trade doesn't work, growing these herbaceous plants directly in a bog area results in the same type of plant you would have if you dug one from the wild, this isn't a nursery propagated container plant.  In natural soils it will react differently than in a pot, as well it can be exposed to natural predator such as insect or disease that is very difficult to combat.  I am talking about this type of operation in a natural southern location, not 1,200 miles north or west of the natural range where climate would further reduce season, and out put of marketable stock.  You can not count on Sarracenia from the gulf coast growing in a way to make a nursery profit outdoors in a bog type garden in New York or Michigan, not going to happen the winter season are more harsh and extended, summers short and offer various cool spells which can stunt the season further.  Rasing commercial nursery product is a investment.

Again as Tony points out $3.95 is not a realistic retail price for nursery grown Sarracenia in the United States.  This price
is below some of my wholesale prices for bare root stock, profit margins are razor slim and disater such as bugs or fungal infection can take out the whole seasons work leaving one with no return.

I have seen first hand and sold with people offering field collected Sarracenia while I struggle to develop them as a nursery trade.  It is upsetting as they have no investment in the plants other than digging them up and throwing them in a pot.  While I have grown them as a crop such as any commercial agricultural grower.  Applying pesticide (which ain't cheap), there is a slow return on ones labor with growing plants out from seed or tc compared to field collected stock.
I am not going to debate the merits of field collecting.  I certainly have taken plants from the field in years past.  I have been growing these plants since 1974, and have been in the field directly and seen field collecting in mass.  I have seen men walking in rows in the Green Swamp of NC with pillow cases plucking VFT, Pings, & Drosera.  When they spotted us they ran, but we caught up and talked.  They were poor men from the local area and collecting plants as a good source of making fast cash.  This is understandable, and you can bet this goes on today as we discuss this.

I can tell you old wholesale operations such as Tote`em Zoo in Wilmington NC collected hundreds of thousands of native cp throughout the 70's & 80's.  Northrops Insectivorous Plant Farm was a heavy hitter at that time with field collected material.  These operations are no longer in business, but
Even now there is one operation I know of that has state permits to legally collect native NC plants for the trade.

It is not the point that they are legally collected, but field collected plants overall are inferior in quality compared to a container grown plant.  Do not doubt this, if you ever bring in a field collected plant to your private collection with the Sarracenia root borer in the rhizome you will have some extreme problems that will endanger all of your Sarracenia.

With time we are seeing improvements regarding nursery quality and size with Sarracenia.  Rob Sacilotto & Philip Sheridan both are fine growers of nursery propagated Sarracenia in the southeast/mid Atlantic.  Dean Cook offers excellent stock though I have less contact and first hand knowledge of west coast growers I don't doubt others are out there.

I personally have been asked to collect Pingicula pumila and other plants in Florida in the early 90's.

Decide where you want to buy your plants and make sure the operator clearly states how the plants are obtained, or grown.
I have never seen a field collected plant act as good in a pot as a nursery propagated plant.

A good deal of my seed stock, and plants being trialed for tc are grown in a in ground field operation, but they are not the plants that will end up being sold, because of the reasons stated above,

Its time to Labor today,

Mike
St. Petersburg Florida
 
  • #34
Mike, thanks for your thoughtful input. It goes a long way
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Noah, the refusal to sell the plants to the 'other' nursery came on the heels of us asking how they obtained their other stock... and at the same time offering them TC stock ov typical VFT for roughly .60 per bulb. I did this to help change the path of what the nursery was doing... I did this to encourage them and tell them that they could get nice healthy TC plants for $.60 each. THAT is when I was told TC is too expensive (SIXTY CENTS, TOO EXPENSIVE?
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. At that point, we declined to do business with them. By us not selling them cephs or r. dragons was not going to instantly send them into the fields to collect... because that's not possible with those plants. Rather, our dealings would have been just to satisfy the company and expand their availability ... so, as someone comes on there to purchase a harvested plant... they too can purchase a red dragon, or whatever.

That was my point... and believe me, we thought about it long and hard... to come up with reasonable logic on whether or not to do business with them.
 
  • #35
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was told TC is too expensive [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The equipment is expensive Phil. As most of you know I hope to have a tiny home business with a few CP's to offer and I was thinking of doing TC but it is just too complicated and expensive (for the equipment) and I decide to just grow everything from seed for the time being.

After reading this over and over and over. I have just a few words to say. I am never going to buy from Peter Pauls (they are too expensive anyways, $30.00 for an N.Gracilis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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idiots) And he lies, everything I have heard quotes from him are lies and/or sidetracking nonsense statements.

Also I have a question, you guys say that artifically propagated plants should only be bought correct? SO your saying I cannot sell my seed grown S.Purpurea now?
 
  • #36
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also I have a question, you guys say that artificially propagated plants should only be bought correct? SO your saying I cannot sell my seed grown S.Purpurea now?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would say a plant that you have grown by seed.  being that it was grown by you I would consider that being artificially propagated.  if it wasn't fully natural then it is artificial right??  so I would say the sale of this is ok.   and the seed is probably(?) from an artificially propagated plant.
lates,
Andrew
basically don't sell field collected plants.  that is wrong.

oh and phil didn't want to sell him the equipment. he offered to sell plants which they had grown from tc for a good price so they could get out of the field collected plants and begin selling these artificially propagated plants... to help.
 
  • #37
N.G. :

Even if you tossed seed into a bog or something at your house... and decided to sell it, to me, that's cool. It's when people go out and seek places where these plants grow naturally, and pull them up to sell.

We're installing a bog right now next to our pond... believe me.. if the sarr. drop seed and grow, we'll at the very least trade them, as they are not being taken from the wild.
 
  • #38
you know, this discussion reminds me of another one we had once... where one side just refused to be wrong, ignored all the other sides arguments, and continued spouting, forgive me, crap.

1) We have first hand reports of people being approached by this nursery for field collection (I ask you, is there much differeance between 50 cents and 60? NO!  there is not, 10 cents more profit for field collecting is just pure greed.)

2) You have heard evidence that the nursery can not support those prices with legal/ethical activity, this is most telling beyond anything.

3)You said noo ne ever complained about getting a wrong plant, WRONG. I have, it took him 3 months to rectify the situation once it was discovered, and there was a big discussion on it on this forum, some of the oldtimers probalby remomber it.

The plain and simple truth is, that if you support this nursery, then you support raping a natural resource.  IN the last few years several instances of entire bogs being raped clean have been reported, I don't know that PPN was responsible, more likely a 3rd party was, but the practice is out there, and it wouldn't suprise me in the least if they ended up in someones hands... maybe yours?  you don't know unless you buy from a reputable source.

I wish I had seen all this sooner... All I can say now is I am just disgusted.  Plain and simple, as I think 99% of the people here are.

Oh, and one more thing...

it's painfully obvious from your own photo that the sar has no active growth on it, didn't you say it had leaves? All I see is a rhiozome...

Why did you even post this garbage here? You want to redeem this nursery on the forums of another nursery in the same business? That is just plain rude at best, lacking in tact and class at worst.
 
  • #40
Phew, i think we all can call this a skirmish and a half? aehh??? Well i just wanted to say, this one thing that regarded to this "Quote" </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also I have a question, you guys say that artifically propagated plants should only be bought correct? SO your saying I cannot sell my seed grown S.Purpurea now?
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Propagation, defines as follow:
prop·a·gate Pronunciation Key (prp-gt)
v. prop·a·gat·ed, prop·a·gat·ing, prop·a·gates
v. tr.
To cause (an organism) to multiply or breed.
To breed (offspring).
To transmit (characteristics) from one generation to another.
To cause to extend to a broader area or larger number; spread: missionaries who propagate the faith.
To make widely known; publicize: propagate a rumor.
Physics. To cause (a wave, for example) to move in some direction or through a medium; transmit.

v. intr.
To have offspring; multiply.
To extend to a broader area or larger number; spread.
Physics. To move through a medium

so what you are doing is propagation, Well anyways, I Really want Everyone TO be REALLY HAPPY! as for damnit people it is labor day! 3 day weekend for most of us!!! RAISE THE ROOF! but anyways, watching all these posts, is quite entertaining... and yet disgruntling.... and yet some how tactfully tastey?
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Wahat??? that made no sense... never mind that.. what we need here, are facial expressions such as these:
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, None of these facial expressions:
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.... you know... Well maybe i shouldnt have said anything.. but i just wanted to add just a bit of humor, int he big vat of emotional feeling here.... but you probably thinks i have drank soem nepenthes juice or soemthing.. by the way my typing is sllluuurrred... and by my crazy antics.. i cant say i have drank any recently before this post... though... mUhhahahahaha!

Remember HAPPY/CRAZY Not MaD/CrAzY..... Kadoek

Jim
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