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Spamming at gardenweb

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  • #21
Darn it jaie!!! You beat me to it!

I think you just type faster than I do
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  • #22
My ban finger is primed for action. :biggrin:

Pat

(if you're new to the forums: relax, we're joking.)
 
  • #23
Ron,

I'd like to put my voice in here because it was my being banned that resulted in that last big onslaught against GW and I figure hearing the story straight from the source might make you understand a bit better.

Here is how I was banned from GW:

I am sure you are aware of the "send this person an email" function on GW. I used that to send someone on GW an email refering them here as a source of information. I don't remember my exact words but it was something along the lines of 'You might want to check the forums at petflytrap.com because I know there are quite a few people there who grow Aldrovandra and they can probably help you.' (That person is a member of PFT as well now and if you would like to ask his confirmation on this I'll give you his user name and you can contact him.)

The next day when I tried to log on I found that I had been terminated. When I emailed Spike as to why he fully and totally thrashed me and told me that I had blatantly violated the GW spam laws and so I got what I deserved.

Now, if you can truly, honestly explain to me how this is spamming I will accept it and I will write a letter of apology to Spike. I can not fathom how it is spamming and even if it is it does not warrent Spike telling me that I am a terrorist on the order of the 9/11 terrorists and that I will get mine in the end.

I posted a thread here about what happened to me so that other members of both these forums would not have what happened to me happen to them. I never anticipated or expected that it would erupt the way it did and I will be the first to agree that the reaction was a bit out of hand. You have to understand though that it came about because Spike has treated a lot of people this way, it just happened to be his actions toward me that broke the dam and released the flood.

Something else I would like to add. I know that you are in some type of communication with Spike, you might want to mention to him that it is illegal for him to monitor (even by proxy) the content of email between people the same way it is illegal to open and read someone elses mail. I have looked into this so I'm not just blowing smoke.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I hope you can understand where we are coming from (I'm not asking you to agree, just to understand.)

Pyro
 
  • #24
>Gardenworld seems a most unfriendly place. Not only is >mentioning PFT cause for banishment, so is offering free
>seed

I saw that post. It looked like very much like a spam message. It was very suspicious looking, and I commented on that fact at the time. It was very long and verbose, and phrased like the typical spam message.

If you had just used a few simple sentences, and hadn't made is to long and spam-like, I think it would have been OK.

Ron
 
  • #25
It looks like there was a falling out between petflytraps.com and GardenWeb. That is still no excuse for the spam attacks on GardenWeb. It looks to me that GardenWeb had no choice but to install a spam filter to protect themselves.

Unfortunately, it looks like some people were banned from GardenWeb because they were innocent victims of the spam drive-by shootings.

>you might want to mention to him that it is illegal for him to monitor (even by proxy) the content of email between people the same way it is illegal to open and read someone elses mail.

If that is the case, then the spam filters used by most of the other ISP's such as AOL, Earthlink and hotmail are illegal as well.

Ron
 
  • #26
Hey all, man, for some reason this is one of my favorite topics. Maybe a small piece of me thrives on conflict or something... so sad.

I wanted to re-iterate a couple points here:

It IS absolutely illegal to scan someones e-mail, unless you are A) the federal government or B) an employer who believes the employee is breaking trust. And even B has it's consequences.

You may all remember my sig a while back referred to a game called Masters of Orion 3 or moo3.com. now, there is a board where discussion not only gets out of hand, but sometimes down right insulting! the game community is very unhappy with how development is going, and they are posting blatantly about this to the developer, who takes it in stride, and responds where they can. The point is, they are taking the criticism.

I was banned the first time from Gardenweb, not because I posted petflytraps name, but because I wrote spike a letter telling him what I thought of his policies. He had a chance to respond, explain to me why they were good polocies, but rather chose to simply ban me from the forums. That is fine, I really don't care, but it shows you his level of committment to his users. He considers every person there to be 'throw away, expendable, replaceable'.

I have met few people in my life I actually just plain don't like. Spike is one of them, and it wasn't even until I heard that he was fond of comparing a reference to petflytrap as akin to flying a plane load of people into buildings with thousands of people.

TO do so is so ardently disrespectful to those that had their lives stolen from them that it makes me sick to my stomach. I am a very patriotic individual, I come from a military family, and while I was not able to serve in the military for genetic reasons (asthma and the arches in my feet) I cling proudly to the tradition that my father served our country in.

It just really really gets to me when people don't understand the sacrifices made so that we can have places like this, our free speech (And most free speech in the world it could be argues) was bought with the blood of americans. That is not to say America fought everyones revolutions, and won them, but certainly a very large number of countries were inspired by the example that america puts forward, our constitution has been copied by many governments.

Any how... I guess my point is this: If I had never been banned for telling spike what I thought, for writing 'petflytrap' on his boards, if I had never done anything but had a great time on gardenweb I would still have asked for my account to be deleted because of that particular commentary. It speaks to the total lack of honor, charachter, and respect that is involved witht he people that run that site, and I would want nothing to do with it.

</End Rant> Done with my commentary here I think!
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  • #27
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you had just used a few simple sentences, and hadn't made is to long and spam-like, I think it would have been OK.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

In this case it would not have been. Spike's reason for terminating the post and banning the member was because the post was not "discussion oriented. This forum is for discussion only."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It looks like there was a falling out between petflytraps.com and GardenWeb.  That is still no excuse for the spam attacks on GardenWeb.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Yes there was a huge falling out (a whole other story and not my place to tell it.) And you are absolutly right that it isn't an excuse to spam attack. But by the same token it is not an excuse for Spike to terminate anyone who mentiones PFT reguardless of context. If I say "Hey, I know a guy at PFT who grows that plant successfully. you might want to try contacting him." that isn't spam, that is just a statment of fact.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> It looks to me that GardenWeb had no choice but to install a spam filter to protect themselves.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Again, protecting themselves is one thing, terminating anyone because they mention PFT is somthing else entirely.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unfortunately, it looks like some people were banned from GardenWeb because they were innocent victims of the spam drive-by shootings.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

This maybe the case but Spike should consider this and not consider someone immediately guilty (innocent until proven guilty is the way it tends to work.) He might also want to consider being civilized when a person asks why they were banned instead of assaulting them with profanity and damning them as terrorists. JMHO

I still don't see how what I did is classified as spam and it still rubs me the wrong way that I was treated the way I was.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If that is the case, then the spam filters used by most of the other ISP's such as AOL, Earthlink and hotmail are illegal as well.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I'm just going off what I was told by the FCC, and it is entirly possible that they are wrong.

And if Spkies filter is good enough to grab every post that has any mention of PFT or anything like it then he might want to sell it to other ISPs because reams of spam still get past my hotmail filters.
smile.gif


Pyro
 
  • #28
The last person ( well I don't think he was the last ) was banned for trying to get people to openly trade what they have, to repopulate colonies of plants among growers.
It was a plea for us all to do something more.

No where in his writing was he 'spamming' or soliciting something.

The response he received from the members ( that are left ) at GW and the owners to me was rude, inconsiderate, abusive, stupid ( I can go on and on with adjectives ).

People didn't trust what he was saying nor did they even read it all.

So amazing, he posts the post here, and the response was tremendous. So overwhelming with love and support, we are now in the process of offering a free seedbank ( which is coming in a few months ).

That is spamming? There is your difference between GW and PFT. Respect does not exsist on that site. Nor does the mind of treating people the right way.

I believe that you are missing the point on the 'spamming' thing. Actually you have missed the point.

What happened ( and I thinik that we all agree it wasn't right ) was a result of member after member being banned form that site. For little or no reason. At times for mentioning our name at other times for trying to GIVE AWAY FREE SEED!

These 'spam filters' were already in place months in not a year before this 'drive by spam attack'

Once this falling out had taken place between us and GW, Petflytrap.com was no longer able to be used on that site.

Why don't you go through the site and find for me those words. I bet you cannot find it one time. Not by me, or any other user.

The casual mention of a site for reference I feel shouldn't be grounds for banning, and the after comparison to terrorist.

I don't want my site mentioned on Gardenweb. I want nothing to do with Spike, or anyone that wants to play sides and most of all feel that they are right for treating people in such a manner.

This issue will only get worse, it will not get better. And as people start to find out these are the practices of GW and not PFT, you will see that this is the better place.
 
  • #29
Ram,

Thank you, you managed to jog my brain in just the right way. I have been trying to put it into words in my head but have failed until now.

Spike's comparing me to to the 9/11 terrorists positivly disgusted me. Saying that, by offering someone help as to where they can get information, puts me on the level of killing 3000+ people goes beyond absurd. It is complete and total STUPIDITY and goes beyond calling me (or anyone for that matter) a Nazi.

That is why I feel so strongly about this and I can not think of a single thing that would make me change my mind.

Pyro
 
  • #30
>It IS absolutely illegal to scan someones e-mail, unless you are A) the federal government or B) an employer who believes the employee is breaking trust. And even B has it's consequences.

So what you are saying is that it is illegal to have spam filters because spam filters scan email messages? If this is true, then most of the Internet providers such as AOL, hotmail and Earthlink are doing illegal scanning of the email. Is this correct?

Ron
 
  • #31
NO, I guess I wasn't clear.

When you 'send' an e-mail through gardenweb to someone a couple things happen. Even though you write the message in a web interface, YOUR personal e-mail account is attatched to it, and it is sent to your recipients PERSONAL e-mail account.

Point of origin on private messages does NOT give you the right to scan a message for spam, for instance, if I were to write an e-mail using a hotmail account, even though all the mail transactions are being handled by their server Hotmail does NOT have the right to scan my e-mail for content. They CAN check to see if I am sending it to 50,000 people without invading private content, that is fine. But what is happening here is not scanning for SPAM, it is more akin to a prison opening an inmates mail. Last I checked, none of us were gardenweb convicts. THey simply don't have the right under the law to scan e-mail based posts.

They can scan what goes up on their public boards to their hearts content, all perfectly legal. I do not have a problem, nor does anyone here I think, witht he fact that after the 'drive by spamming' gardenweb went in and removed every reference to petflytrap. They should have and did do the right thing in that instance. (As much as I don't like it)

However as has been stated before, the mention of petflytrap was banned BEFORE any drive by spamming, petflytrap was banned because Spike for some reason doesn't like two of the nicest guys I like, Phil and jEf,f owners of petflytrap. Petflytrap is a competitor, the only other viable commercial cp operation that offers forums, and those forums steal his business, i.e. spike no likey. It is realyl quite simple.

Look at it this way, there are a lot of other plant nurseries out there that are allowed to be mentioned on gw, and the posts are not removed. why do they remove petflytrap posts (BEFORE) the 'drive by spamming'? simple, the reasons stated above.

That fact can not be worked around, circumvented, or challenged in any way. It's simple. CAUSE AND EFFECT. the use of the words petflytrap were banned, a members private e-mail was scanned, delivery most likely stopped, and the user banned, and then an outcry of public support for that banned member which unfortunately took the shape of a 'drive by spamming'. the issues that all of us have with Gardenweb come from BEFORE all of this.

Heck, this forum became REALLY REALLY ACTIVE because Phil, Jeff, and myself went out and hunted down the people that had been banned from GW for offering freee seed, discussing trades, and linking to petflytrap over a YEAR ago. Many of the core members here, peopel who helped pump this forum into the giant it is today, are all 'garden web rejects.'

And let me point something else out... You can take it to heart that our feelings for gardenweb are all in the past, prior to our very public show of support for Pyro, because at this given moment in time, I dont think very many of us give a flying flip about spike and his forums. I check in every month or so just to see how slow things have really gotten. It would take Garden Web a YEAR to accumulate a weeks worth of posts on Petflytrap. The place is history, spike ran off most of his users, and has only himself to blame for it.

Now, not to sound like a petflytrap propoganda merchant, but plain and simple, this place is the future of Carnivorous Plants, it is the only CP nursery I know of that makes regular donations for CP habitat restoration and protection. It has a vibrant and growing community, and a web presence, that quite frankly, blows away every one else, sure, there are other great nurseries out there, and many of us like them, they are guys and gals who sell their plants and make a good living off something they love, and that is GREAT, but petflytrap strives to be more, we want to tell the WORLD about these plants, we want to make as many species available to everyone as we can, all in a very responsible manner.

Moreover, we want to share that information as freely as possible, and it is that very thing that makes this place great, the fact that anyone can come here, and within 24 hours, almost every single time have a high quality answer to their questions, that they can come here and be a part of a community, a family if you will, of people who plain and simple love these plants, not how much is made off the advertising banners on their site.

I think that pretty much covers it.
 
  • #32
WTF? If you don't like the way things are run here then AMF. Some people are just bad news man. I guess I'm not sure why we're spending so much time on history rather than current events.

Edit: Diplomacy is not my strong suit...


(Edited by Dyflam at 3
wow.gif
9 pm on April 17, 2002)
 
  • #33
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from eklaab on 12:34 pm on April 17, 2002
>It IS absolutely illegal to scan someones e-mail, unless you are A) the federal government or B) an employer who believes the employee is breaking trust.  And even B has it's consequences.

So what you are saying is that it is illegal to have spam filters because spam filters scan email messages?  If this is true, then most of the Internet providers such as  AOL, hotmail and Earthlink are doing illegal scanning of the email. Is this correct?

Ron[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Ron,

Whether that is correct or not isn't really the point here. We might be mistaken, you might be mistaken, we both might be mistaken.

The main thing here is that we (I am including all the members of PFT but am not speaking for all of them) feel that Spike is abusing his power selectivly towards PFT and anyone who has any affiliation with them.

Why is it you can post www.californiacarnivores.com on GW and nothing happens but if you post www.petflytrap.com you are banned with no explaination? Why is it okay for Spike to say that by offering someone a link as a source of information I am as vile a person as the men who slammed 2 planes into the WTC, one into the Pentagon and one into a field and killed 3000+ people?

This is the problem we have with GW/Spike. We are not going to ask you to come around to our way of though. We are not going to ask you to convert. We are not even going to ask you to change your mind. I know that it might not seem that way right now with all that has been posted but you can obviously see that this is a very volitile topic and we all feel very strongly about it.

All we ask is that you try and see where we are coming from, to understand why we feel the way we feel and accept that we feel that way. Acceptance does not mean agreement.

I can not speak for everyone here but I can guarantee you that, even though you and I see things differently about GW, I will treat you as I would treat any other member of PFT. I respect that you have different opinions and views than I do and I am not going to let that get in the way of me talking about CPs (or other plants) with you or anyone else here.

Pyro
 
  • #34
Here Here Pyro! Excellent! I agree!

And EK, you know you and I talked a lot over at gardenweb, you know a lot of us from there probably, were all good people, we know your a good person too.

Respect... I guess that is what all this boils down to huh? Good post Pyro!
 
  • #35
####,

I was gone thismorning, and couldn't chime in ... <sigh>

But...

1) the point has been missed

2) GW is disrespectful. period.  No way to treat people.

3) if you don't like it or don't agree with it, bow out of the conversation... you're fighting a losing battle (as far as opinions go).  The people here... are all cast aways from that site for one reason or another... and the numbers of memebers that post here speak for the site itself... versus 'the other place'.

4) it has now become a personal mission (not NECESSARILY MINE), to make sure that people... users, readers, and advertisers know how gardenweb treats their members.  Their members WILL be solicited... we WILL depleat their CP members... They're just starting to look bad... they do a good job at that... ya think?


We're just here... trying to make a decent place for people to converse, get along, and make friends... there's hardly any restrictions ... at all... what so ever.  Additionally, this place is run with respect...

Just in case you haven't noticed, eklaab, we don't ban people who disagree with us... or you'd be gone.

Just like G.W. did to many of their people.

Now, don't take this personally, I'm just making a statement here... and expressing how I feel about people that are downright disrespectful... and ... well.. for lack of better words... just sh*tty.  Those people can go play somewhere else... and we'll play here.

I hope you become an active member and share your knowledge with others, as these forums are intended to do... but if you want to argue to the death over policy here versus policy at gardenweb, I'm bored with it.  And I think we're all bored with it.  It's counterproductive, and does nothing for our readers but make gardenweb look like crap.

Just my two buffalo nickels
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  • #36
>However as has been stated before, the mention of petflytrap was banned BEFORE any drive by spamming

I'm not sure how that can be. If that was really the case, then the driveby spamming would have been blocked and not appeared on GardenWeb. Am I missing something here?

Like I mentioned before, I've witnessed the spam attacks on GardenWeb. The spam block was not, or could not have been in place before the attacks. It went into place after the attacks, as far as I can tell.

>Why is it you can post http://www.californiacarnivores.com on GW and nothing happens but if you post http://www.petflytrap.com you are banned with no explaination?

There weren't any spam attacks involving http://www.californiacarnivores.com, correct? If there were, then I'm sure a spam block for www.californiacarnivores.com would have been activated.

Ron
 
  • #37
Aargh - GW is still in my favourites. Right click, delete, sorted
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  • #39
Hey um if you realy feel like dwelling on this why don't you go thru all of the OLD posts here dated before the spamming and find out what went on before. Otherwise there's a saying "If it's dead leave it alone! Quit poking it with that stick!" Well, that not realy a saying but my parents used to tell me that all of the time and unless youre a mortician it's still a good thing to go by.
 
  • #40
ok I will try and boil it down..

The issue of spam and spam filters is besides the point.

There never was (not sure if this is now) a spam filter at GW. You could, and as far as I still know still can, post whatever you wanted (at your own risk).

Spike has been banning people from his site for the past couple years that I know of, for idiotic reasons including the single mention of PFT. I have seen email he has sent to various people he has banned, when they inquired why. ALL of it has been incrediably rude and obnoxious.
The spam attack was in response to banning a single member mentioning PFT in a private message at GW, knowing that a single mention on their message board would get him banned.
The realization that spike, his staff whatever, is reading not only the posted messages but all the private messages is the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.
His ensuing tirad about how these people are nazi terrorists and akin to the terrorists that killed all those innocent people last fall is beyond absurd.

Tony
 
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