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Thread: Vftxsundew

  1. #1

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    First off, sorry for not being around lately, other responsibilities have been taking precedence. And yes UKC, I spell checked the big post [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img] LOL

    Anyhow...
    YAH! SERIOUSLY! If you don't want to believe me that’s fine, but please hear me out on this. In theory, it is totally possible to cross a VFT and a Sundew to produce offspring that is not only viable but also able to reproduce!

    Now normally this is impossible, the two species would probably have different chromosome #'s and even if you did get a sundew species with the same # of chromosomes as a VFT, the two sets wouldn't recognize each other during meiosis (assuming you even had a living hybrid from the original cross which is unlikely because the DNA is SO different it would be more like having an incomplete set of chromosomes, or a haploid cell after the gametes combined)

    BUT! If non-disjunction occurred in both the parent gametes(aka the sperm and the egg when they where first formed) the cross would produce a 4n cell. Because the parent data from each original donor is so different from the other plant, it functions as though a single set from each parent is one very large set. This makes the offspring an effective instant 2n containing double the chromosomes of either parent. No only does the double set from each parent make the fertilized egg viable (now has full data set) it also lets the plant that grows from this produce its own offspring because chromosomes can recognize a partner and pair off successfully.

    This viable hybrid would not be able to cross back to parent pants (without some other mishap) and would effectively become its own brand new species! How cool is that?! The new species would be of the type called an Allopolyploid (or to be precise, an Allotetraploid in this example).

    So why hasn't it happened? Probably in part do to the low sexual reproductive rate of VFT and their extremely limited range. It's also a rare event for the events to coincide, but it DOES happen in nature! In fact, many scientists feel most of our crop plants came from humans stumbling on the individual lone freaks and propagating them. One of the classic recorded cases is Salt Marsh Grass. About 100 years ago, a new super large robust grass showed up in Europe. The native species had 60 chromosomes... oddly enough, the American species had 62 and this sudden new species, It had 162! Cha-ching natural Allopolyploid! Of course, humans can speed this up in the lab using chemicals to prevent non-disjunction, but it's not always an artificial process.

    As CP people you're also probably aware of the Sundew's habit of doubling its chromosomes and then self pollinating. That how we get a lot of our funky species. This is basically the same thing but involves one plant's disjunction fertilizing another plant's disjunction (it's more common for sundew to produce 3n "sterol" hybrids and then pollinate themselves and occasionally make a 4n (normal fertile) and 5n"steriol" in our collections). I live in MI which is a hot spot for this event in round-leaf, long-leaf and spatulata sundew's doing this (an article in the CP journal is about this).

    Okay, okay, so you’re thinking that Darcie is just spouting off without knowing all the facts and she is getting too much out of her genetics’ lecture and somewhere she is messed up and so this is wrong. HA HA! I may be a slow learner, but I DO learn. I spent some time going over the concepts with my Genetics’ professor (who is like a genetic engineering god, she is sooo awesome and know like practically EVERYTHING&#33[img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img], and I was very careful to include all the details about the distant relationship and ect ect. Well, her conclusion is that their is no foreseeable reason why, if this where to be done, the resulting gamete would be not able to grow into a viable plant (that sentence is confusing, she said yes it could happen). Pretty darn awesome isn't it? Apparently it has to do with plant's extremely high tolerance for chromosomal accumulation and assimilation. As long as two plants are not extremely different in morphology (aka monocot and dicots) they can be crossed. Weird hun?

    Obviously, the chance of doing this without lab chemical work is very small. I would imagine one would have to obtain a first generation 4n plant of each species and cross them in the hopes of the 2n from each entering the new cell where close enough to recognize each other still.

    Anyhow, I thought I'd share this most interesting bit of data and also ask: Has anyone tried this yet?!

    Thoughts, comments, ideas... it's so cool I'd love to have a conversation on it [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]
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    What you really need to do is cross a VFT with a Nepenthes...Can anyone one say..man eating plant?

    Anywhoo..I'm instrested in what the plant would look like...dewy traps? lol [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/img]
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    Yah, I'd love to see what sort of weird thing came out of a cross like that too [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img] Unfortunetly for tropical pichure plants, I think that may be getting to distent for much hope of crossing. As to really big VFT's, and I'm just going by what I know about plants in general here, if you got a big enough pollyploid (pure vft with extra chromosome sets) like a 20n or something, you should get a super large plant. I guess thats how they got all those sizes of mum flowers for example. Sort of funny how extra chromosomes just make plants get bigger [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]
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    Tony Paroubek's Avatar
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    Polyploidy typically results in smaller stockier thicker leaved, slower growing plants. Flowers are often longer lived because of the extra substance and in some cases larger than the diploid type.

    As for crossing a VFT with another genus.. Could it be done?
    Yes although it might take some fancy lab work.

    Personally I think the result would be not worth the effort. Odds are you would get something of a mishmash of traits that leaves you with a plant that can't really function properly.
    Tony
    Is that a Nepenthes in your pocket or you just happy to see me?

  5. #5

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    Yah, but it would still be fun to try. Your description of how plants respond to additional chromosomes is one of many ways they can respond. According to my texts and genetic professor, most are larger overall, grow faster and are more robust then haploid counterparts. I also know personally this is the case in MI sundews. Usually the only time you get that uneven issue is when only a pair or two of chromosomes double up insted of the entire set or when you have a triploploid. I guess we all have differnt idea's on what is worth the effort. I mean yah, you could get a messed up freak of a plant, or you could get a totally awsome new species. I will say that creating 4n and 8n flytraps is probubly a more commerially profitable endevor since that's one way to make giant type vfts.
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    Hmm... *news headlines*"********** has made partnership with darcie as they embark on creating a new species of carnivorous plant! The plant would be like a flytrap, but the petioles would have dew drops on it, and each dew drop would be inside a secluded microscopic trap! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img] The largest trap, at the end of the petiole, would be the normal size of a vft, but the inside of the trap would have dew&#33[img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img]"*

    Seriously, I think it would be cool, a dewy leaf and a trappy... trap [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img]

    Good luck darcie if you decide to try it! You;d make millions! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img] Then you could sell a clone to pft to get tissue cultured... [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img]

    [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/alien.gif[/img]

  7. #7
    goldtrap2690's Avatar
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    this has been done before with unsuccesful results , they have bred a flytrap with a d. regia i guess and the offsprings were weak and died , you can try again though . there has also been a time when a heliamphora was crossed with a darlingtonia , same result . although i would really like to see a cross like this so keep on trying .

  8. #8
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    Yah, but it would still be fun to try[/QUOTE]

    Easy, Dr. Maureau, easy! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif[/img]

    What would you call that, anyway? x'Sticky Fingers' ??
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