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Thread: And the winner is....

  1. #33

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    Having a society that works is expensive and must be taxed to be funded. If you want to live in a 1850's frontier town with Reagan and Bush be my quest. I have no wish to return to ugly, racist, violent, stupid frontier rugged individualist America. We have too much money in the private sector and do not fund the public sector anymore. As long as one kid can't get to college or one guy is homeless or as long as any social problem remains it is wicked to justify the selfish indulgence of useless luxury. This country did not do that from the 1930's to the 1970's. It began in the 80's as the Repubs brought back the long discredited siren song that selfish greed is good.
    I would have a higher regard for the "success" of the successful is I did not see that most make their "success" by lying, cheating and stealing. I do not know one wealthy individual who did not cheat to get there. Yeah, hard work!
    [/QUOTE]

    Man, I don't know about anyone else, but that sounds a lot like communism to me. This country was founded on the ideals that anyone who works hard enough can make something of theirselves.
    I worked my but off to send MYSELF to college. Please, for the love of god, tell me why in the world I should pay to send YOU or your kid to college. ANYONE can go to school today. There are so many grants and programs that if you don't go to school its your own fault.
    Sounds like you are angry with people that have made a good life for theirselves. Let me tell you something buddy. My family owns an extremly succesfull construction company. We grew a $100,000 loan into a company worth 18 million in 10 years. We didn't lie, we didn't cheat, and we didn't steal. We worked our tails off. THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY my friend.

    An averadge of 54% of my money goes to taxes. How dare you say thats not enough? Over half of the money I EARN goes to the gov. and simply because I make more than you, it isn't enough. Basically, what your saying is we should all be taxed down to your level of income so we stand on level playing fields.

    "it is wicked to justify the selfish indulgence of useless luxury" that has to be the saddest comment I have ever read. Now we are getting into socialism. We should I work hard and try to prosper when you think I should just give all the money back to help the lazy?
    Give me a break. *Most* of the homeless are homeless because of there own faults. Everyone who asks me for a dollar on the street, I usually give them a few bucks, but I also give them my buisness card. I tell them to come by the office in the morning and I would put them to work the same day. Keep in mind, these where all ABLE boddied people. You know how many came to see me? NONE. Why should I help someone who doesn't want to help theirselves?


    Quote
    Bin Laden is a threat to this country and the war in Afganistan (now totally overshadowed by Iraq) is justified. Saddam was not a threat to us or anyone anymore and this war is for anything but our safety. Like Vietnam, it is PURELY a political and financial war to serve the interests of those in power. We were sold a shell game and far too many of us bought into it. The blame rests solely with the Repubs.[/QUOTE]


    You speak about the morallity of helping the homeless but what about the persecuted, the people that are being starved and slain by there own leader. Oh, wait, thats right, its not in our backyard so its ok, right? Screw em, they arn't worth helping because WE have some lazy slob who can't hold a job living on the street. Add to the fact you have a psychotic dictator in power that has used WMD against his OWN PEOPLE. What in gods name makes you think he wouldn't use them on anyone else. Do you have any idea what would happen if he actually used them on his neighbors? The entire mid-east would de-stabalize into war. Hello 10 bucks a gal at the pump.


    /rant off

    Casper

  2. #34
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    Now let's not throw the communism card around here. Nobody is suggesting that. Every first-world nation is a combination of free-markets and social programs. The only arguement is how much of each makes for wise and prudent social policies.

    It's distressing for me to go to much poorer countries than ours and see better public schools available to everyone, including at the university level, better access to medical care, better public transportation and roads. There's no reason we have so many millions without basic health insurance, and it costs those of us who pay taxes to have a cycle of poverty and crime in our cities due to a lack of services that provide a pathway out.

    However, it's also obvious that we shouldn't just give cash to junkies and do other stupid things that just enable a degenerative and parasitic lifestyle. Unfortunately, intead of a debate on wise vs. stupid social programs, people tend to get on a more vs. less debate.

    Also, I don't know who does all your taxes, but I've made as much as $500,000 in a year, and never paid anything remotely close to 54% of that in taxes. In fact, there are many more tax breaks available to the wealthy than anyone else. As a small business owner, I know the value of hard work, and the importance of being rewarded for that work. But I also want to live in a world where people who don't don't achieve like you, Casper, or any of the rest of us who've had good opportunities in life, can still have productive, happy lives. And I want to live in a world where everyone has access to health care and education, so they can become better people, and where I'm not always stuck in traffic or suffering power outages.

    Capslock
    Malo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium

    My photos are copyright-free and public domain

  3. #35

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    54% is relative after income and property taxes are assessed.

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    And I want to live in a world where everyone has access to health care and education, so they can become better people, and where I'm not always stuck in traffic or suffering power outages.
    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with you whole heartedly. Fact of the matter is, we have programs set up for higher education. Anyone who wants a higher education has the ability to get one. They just have to work for it.

    Health care is another issue all together. Everyone should have health care, and there are programs in place, that you and I pay for, to give health care to people who can't afford it. Is it the best system in the world? No, it isn't, but neither is the expensive health care that I pay for my family. Untill the money is taken out of polotics, I don't see it changing any time soon either.

    A lot of the problems we have in this nation, ultimatly resort back to us, as a people. Locally, we recently had a gubinatorial vote. On the ballot was an amendment to raise property taxes (avg of $66 a year per $100,000 of home value) to go directly to our school system. The vote passed by half a percent. That is a sad. The PEOPLE would rather have a few hundred dollars a year than to give their children better education. No polotics involved, no parties, the people voted on this and it barely passed.

    Quote
    It's distressing for me to go to much poorer countries than ours and see better public schools available to everyone, including at the university level, better access to medical care, better public transportation and roads.[/QUOTE]


    In retrospect, I have been to countries where people WISH they could be poor in the US. Places where hundreds of children are begging outside of the airport for food. Disease runs rampant. most young girls resort to prostition, etc...
    Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying about some have it better, but keel in mind, some have it a lot worse.


    Casper

  4. #36
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    I would have a higher regard for the "success" of the successful is I did not see that most make their "success" by lying, cheating and stealing. I do not know one wealthy individual who did not cheat to get there. Yeah, hard work!
    [/QUOTE]

    I actually find this sort of statement a little offensive. My father built a company from 4 people in his basement to a multi-million dollar coporation SELLING EDUCATIONAL PRODUCTS TO SCHOOLS. He worked 80, 90, 100 hour weeks working his rear off to better YOUR education. You sound very ungrateful to me.
    He sold his company, and he's wealthy now. Not rediculously wealthy, but wealthy none the less. He earned it. And YOU benefitted from his hard work!
    17 Nash Rd.
    North Salem, NY 10560

    YOU! Outta my gene pool!

  5. #37
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    Ahhhh, there is nothing like a good political discussion to get the adrenalin going.
    Every post on this subject just furthers my love for the country I was fortunate enough to be born in. The reason? If this discussion were being held in most other countries...a lot of you guys would be in a gulag making little rocks out of big rocks. Please take no offence from that statement...but it is the truth.
    Now if I was the "Benevolent Dictator" of our country, I would simply not allow you to play with your CPs for a year. Hehehe.
    [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif[/img]

  6. #38

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    It's distressing for me to go to much poorer countries than ours and see better public schools available to everyone, including at the university level, better access to medical care, better public transportation and roads.[/QUOTE]

    Yes but many countries with free college have total tax rates around 80%. I am in college right now and i would rather pay for my own education for 4 yrs. than pay 80% of my income for the rest of my life. If a someone would like to go to college but they don't have the money, they can apply to get one of millions of scholarship available. The gov't also helps those students if they fill out the FAFSA.

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    On the ballot was an amendment to raise property taxes (avg of $66 a year per $100,000 of home value) to go directly to our school system. The vote passed by half a percent. That is a sad. The PEOPLE would rather have a few hundred dollars a year than to give their children better education. No polotics involved, no parties, the people voted on this and it barely passed.[/QUOTE]

    The only problem is some people can't afford to keep adding more and more taxes. Yes the levy was for only $66 a yr., but it can really add up when you consider all the other levies already in place. In my old school district they just built a brand new high school, middle school and 2 new elementaries with a tax levy we passed 2 yrs. ago. Since then they've asked for 4 more levies!!! Only two out of the four passed. If they all had passed taxes would have been raised over $1000 for an average family. And that's a $1000 for 20 yrs., which adds up to $20,000!! My dad farms and the way our property taxes are set up it would cost him 5 times as much as the avg. household. I don't think that's right. Public education is very important but they need to fix some of the unfair tax problems.


    -buckeye

  7. #39

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    Hi,

    First off, you guys have made all sorts of assumptions about me personally that you have no way of knowing and are completely untrue. I am not a communist or a socialist. I am not calling for the disappearance of the State (communism) or for the nationalization of the economy (socialism). When one throws around those words -- like the right wing loves to do -- one should get their meaning straight.
    I believe capitalism is the best system for a healthy economy but I do not believe that old fashioned, 19th century, unregulated and socially blind capitalism is good for anyone or anything except the relatively few owners. The regulations and curbs that grew up to save capitalism from itself and which the Repubs have spent nearly a century fighting are more essential to capitalism than they are to a fair and just society -- only the greed in capitalism and its inability to joyously criticize itself prevent it from understanding itself.
    Now, when I was talking about successful businesses lying, cheating and stealing their way to wealth do you think I was talking about successful Mom and Pop stores that make it through effort and hard work? No. I am talking about the real rich and the real power -- not the upper middle class.
    That said, I watched my own father loose a moderately successful business because he was honest and those around him were not. I have also watched 2 friends build hugely successful businesses by lying on their taxes, paying people under the table, using creative bookkeeping, skimming off cash profit and working the deductions so that they meet the "letter" of the law (if unaudited) but in truth give the big lie to the spirit of the law.
    Of course, I don't even need to mention Enron and all the rest of those hard working, honest, hugely successful and, of course, totally deserving Repub backing businesses.
    Personally, I have worked and put myself through college twice. I did it through my money, loans, grants and scholarships. It was not easy and certainly no where near as simple as you imply. This nation should provide a college education for everyone who can do it. There should only be public schools -- from kindergarden to college. The poor, the rich and the middle, the black, the brown and the purple, the believers and the non-believers should all be in a school system together.
    The hardships I experienced make me understnad that life is too valuable to waste on unnecessary struggle. There is always struggle enough. When we are capable of easing that struggle as a society we should pounce on it and not stroke our egos with rugged individualist fantasies.
    Saddam is nothing like Hitler. Hitler was in power for 3 years and had a war machine that could challenge the best in the world. Saddam was in power since 1969 and only challenged his own people and Iran. He won nothing. Hitler had a plan (a book) for world conquest. Saddam had palaces. If he was so dangerous then the Repubs should have finished him off when he was most powerful -- during Kuwait. Instead, they let him go when he was the biggest threat. Bin Laden is another story. Plus both men are still free as birds.
    The sad truth is the sanctions and inspections -- unsexy though they may be -- worked. He was cantained and had no WMD's. I am glad that you know WMD are there even if NEVER found -- that's a great attitude toward evidence. Convict even when no body is ever found. I believe we always knew he had no WMD. Just look at Repub vs Demo wars. The Demos fight WW I, WW II, Korea and Vietnam -- big bad tough painful wars. What do the Repubs fight? Grenada, Panama, Kuwait and Iraq. Their wars are tiny and victory (of some kind) is assured through hardware. Repubs in the 20th century never fought a hard war. Americans always ignore that little fact of our history. The "peaceniks" have carried the torch.
    So Arnold said, "I admired Hitler for instance because he came from being a little man with almost no formal education, up to power. And I admire him for being such a good public speaker and for his way of getting to the people and so on."

    You only prove my point. There is no way a moral person can admire Hitler's rise to power. It was a path and plan based on murder. He used all the evil to win power that he would use again on a grand scale once he took power. Hitler overthrew a democracy and turned Germany into a dictatorship. Arnold's identification with "the little man" is sick. He reveals a moral blindness of Conan proportions. It is barbaric.

    Arnold also said, "But I didn't admire him for what he did with it. It is very hard to say who I admired and who are my heroes. And I admired basically people who are powerful people, like Kennedy. Who people listen to and just wait until he comes out with telling them what to do. People like that I admire a lot."

    So Arnold basically admires authoritarian "Daddies" who order people to do things and the people then blindly go about doing them? It all reads like Arnold -- the bodybuilder -- just gets off on power. There is nothing more immoral than a power fetish. Again, that is part of what makes the psychology of a Hitler.
    Arnold may have qualified the most obvious objection his admiration of Hilter would inflame but when one reads the entire quote the thought(?) expressed is one of Hitler admiration.
    Hilter was not a military genius or a great economist. Russia blew him to bits even after Stalin murdered most of his officers in the purges during the 1930's. And any economy will function well for a time if it becomes a command economy run by the state and focused on military hardware. The history of the USSR shows what happens to such an economy over time -- implosion. Hilter achieved nothing great. He left Germany in ruins and destroyed its arm forces. One can only fantasize a genius out of Hitler's actions if one ignores the whole and makes a fetish out of isolated incidents. Hitler tapped the ugliness of human nature -- greed, power, hate, violence, selfishness and revenge. The only thing he was a genius at was whipping fools into his own rabid dog frenzy.
    Let's say you do pay 54% of your income in taxes. If you make $10 million dollars that still leaves you with almost 5 million in the bank. Surely, that is enough? I think I could still find a reason to get out of bed, go to work and live if all I had left after taxes was 5 million.
    You see America as an even playing field where the only requirement is sweat. I see a mass of hills and valleys with whole areas already off limits and all sorts of hurdles and handicaps. I wish I could see your idealized Repub vision. I never have. To me, it is unreal at best and a horrible lie at worst.
    I find it funny that those without are always labeled lazy.
    The nation should take care of health care, affordable housing, mass transportation, energy and education before it runs off after teapot dictators it helped to create.

    Bobby

  8. #40

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    Hi.

    Ok, about Arnold and Hitler again. In Arnold's quote: "In many ways I admired people It depends for what. I admired Hitler for instance because he came from being a little man with almost no formal education, up to power. And I admire him for being such a good public speaker and for his way of getting to the people and so on." Arnold did not admire Hitler for the despicable man he became. Arnold admired him because he was an uneducated, low class person who was able to over come this status and become a more powerful person. Also without education he was able to speak well and get the people behind him. All this occurred before Hitler starting killing and taking over Germany. When Hitler started killing, he began abusing his power in a hateful way. This is what is meant by Arnold when he said: "But I didn't admire him for what he did with it." That's all there is to it. Arnold doesn't have a "power fetish" nor is he anti-Semitic Nazi. In fact he has helped an organization for families of the Holocaust and he even had them investigate his once Nazi member dad.

    Quote
    So Arnold basically admires authoritarian "Daddies" who order people to do things and the people then blindly go about doing them?[/QUOTE]

    Nope, he admires people who can pull themselves up their own boot straps, regardless of their social class.

    Quote
    Saddam is nothing like Hitler. Hitler was in power for 3 years and had a war machine that could challenge the best in the world. Saddam was in power since 1969 and only challenged his own people and Iran. He won nothing. Hitler had a plan (a book) for world conquest. Saddam had palaces. [/QUOTE]

    So since Saddam was in power for 30+ years why mess with him right? I mean he was just being a selfless leader right? It's not like he was starving, murdering, torturing, and degrading his people, right? Oh wait he was, wasn't he. Oh well, as long as it's happening several thousand miles away from us. FDR (a democrat) had the same view on Hitler (who had been dictator for 6 yrs. not 3). Hitler was doing the same thing saddam has done, only he was doing it to Jews, the elderly, the physically disabled and the mentally disabled. And FDR knew about it!! But as long as nothing happens here we weren't going to get involved. Well something did happen, and it happened in Pearl Harbor two years after WW II started. We were attacked by the Japan who had joined forces with Hitler. Had we helped defeat Hitler earlier, the Pearl Harbor attack never would have happen. So, Pres. Bush made sure an attack wouldn't happen on American soil by the evil dictator Saddam Hussein.

    Quote
    Plus both men are still free as birds.[/QUOTE]

    Yep, they're about as "free" as their people were. Saddam and bin Laden are constantly on the run, hiding in houses and caves to avoid capture.


    Quote
    The sad truth is the sanctions and inspections -- unsexy though they may be -- worked. He was cantained and had no WMD's. I am glad that you know WMD are there even if NEVER found -- that's a great attitude toward evidence.[/QUOTE]

    Actually there is evidence, it's called the Kay Report. The Kay report was an independent study and found that Saddam had violated Resolution 1441. They also found concealment and destruction of evidence before the UN inspectors showed up. This was continued by Saddam loyalists after Hussein was forced from power. US troops have found burnt documents, rooms, offices and computers.

    Quote
    You see America as an even playing field where the only requirement is sweat. I see a mass of hills and valleys with whole areas already off limits and all sorts of hurdles and handicaps. I wish I could see your idealized Repub vision. I never have. To me, it is unreal at best and a horrible lie at worst.[/QUOTE]

    It's too bad you have such a pessimistic view of America. I think most people, whether they're a democrat, republican, or no party, view America as the land of opportunity. While not everyone can be a multi-millionaire CEO, they can be successful. And that's one of my favorite things about America. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]


    -buckeye

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