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Thread: And the winner is....

  1. #41

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    Hi Buckeye,

    I will say it again. No moral person can separate any aspect of Hitler's life from the means he used to acquire that life. The Nazi Party was a Party of thugs, crooks, right wing wingnuts, murderers and the like from the early 1920's! Hitler built a private army (illegal) to use to beat the crap out of anyone who opposed him. He killed other Party members. He staged a coup in 1924 to topple an elected democratic government. He started killing and beating up people AS A MEANS TO GET POWER long before he got power. For Arnold to admire in any way shape or form HOW Hitler came to power is at best stupid and at worst evil. If that admiration sits ok with you, fine, but it's like admiring a Mafia Boss who rises to power. If the path crooks and madmen use to gain power is to be admired and justified and their actions are to be excused because they were lower middle class then what else is there to say. Hitler rose by bashing heads. So if Arnold admires how he rose and not what he did with it once there then I guess Arnold admires acquiring power through murder. I find it horrible. Who cares if a low class person comes to power if that person does it by murdering and is a monster? How on earth can a moral person separate and parse this subject? Hitler's rise to power was as awlful as his use of it. There is no separation. It is all of one cloth. To try and separate them reveals an amorality and a narcissism worthy of Hilter himself. To look at Hilter and only see a little low class guy gain power is to reveal one's own warped need for power over others. Sadly, so much of our life today is that shallow and immoral. It really is just about being rich and powerful and if you get there who cares how you did it or who you killed.

    You wrote:

    "All this occurred before Hitler starting killing and taking over Germany. When Hitler started killing, he began abusing his power in a hateful way."

    This statement is an evil lie. Hitler started killing in the early 1920's and never stopped. He was a sado-masocist not just some little guy who made it BIG BIG BIG! He did not abuse his power in a hateful way -- his power was won in a hateful way and was never anything but hate.
    I am stunned that Repubs would justify Hitler in any way. I guess they do admire him deep down in some sick way.
    Repubs can imagine that Saddam is Hitler all they want but it is not true. If any Fascist can be compared to Saddam it is Mussolini -- a big bag of wind. The USA has supported dicatators (Marcos, Pinochet, Shah of Iran, Saddam, Batista, Mubuto, and on and on) who murdered and raped their people and nations for decades. To now argue that we attacked Saddam because we care so much about the poor suffering people (whom we allowed to suffer for over 30 years, thank you) is an act of politcal hypocricy the likes of which boggles the mind. It is such an awlful lie. We are there so we will not have $5 a gallon gasoline. All the rest is bs. The day Saddam could pull a Pearl Harbor in this world is the day it rains pennies from heaven.
    I am reassured that the Repub weapon inspectors in Iraq found "rooms, documents, computers and offices." Imagine my surprise that they still cannot find WMD as we were told that Saddam could bomb us in 45 seconds. Surely, such an awesome and terrifying force must have consisted of more than rooms, offices, computers and documents.
    I do not have a pessimistic view of America. I have a pessimistic view of the nation the Repubs have ruined since 1981. Throughout the history of America, every progressive program has had to fight its way against the will of the right wing in whatever party they were at the time and particularly in the 20th century. The Repubs have fought civil rights, education, social security, medicare, voting rights, ERA, EPA. unions, wages, the right to sue, GI Bill, the arts, science -- everything. All that is good in Ameirca has been won against the Repub onslaught. The Repubs have never done anything that actually helped the people of this country and they have certainly never done a thing to help me. I am not pessimistic but I do not look at America through the lessons of a high school history book.

    Bobby

  2. #42

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    First off, you guys have made all sorts of assumptions about me personally that you have no way of knowing and are completely untrue. I am not a communist or a socialist. I am not calling for the disappearance of the State (communism) or for the nationalization of the economy (socialism). When one throws around those words -- like the right wing loves to do -- one should get their meaning straight. [/QUOTE]

    First off, I never claimed you where a communist or a socialist, I simply stated the words you spoke sounded as such. I personally don't know you from Sam, so I couldn't make such an assumption.


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    Let's say you do pay 54% of your income in taxes. If you make $10 million dollars that still leaves you with almost 5 million in the bank. Surely, that is enough? I think I could still find a reason to get out of bed, go to work and live if all I had left after taxes was 5 million.[/QUOTE]

    Thats fine and dandy, but what you are asking for is a free ride through life. All of these great ideas is going to raise my taxes to 80%+. Now all of a sudden, that 10 million turns into 2 million. Why in the world would I want to strive to be succesfull when I have to give 80% of my money that I supposedly "Lied and cheated" for so that YOU can go to college.

    Let me give you a news flash buddy. LIFE ISN'T EASY. It never has been, and never will be. If we hand feed kids today and give them everything on a silver platter, when they finally hit the REAL world, how prepared do you really think they will be?

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    Personally, I have worked and put myself through college twice. I did it through my money, loans, grants and scholarships. It was not easy and certainly no where near as simple as you imply.[/QUOTE]

    Please, cry me a river. You mean to tell me you actually had to WORK for something? Oh no! You are absolutly correct, something must change! God forbid, we can't make people actually work for what they have these days, thats un-thinkable!

    This country is so great because EVERYONE has a chance to be as succesful as they want. Why do you think so many people are trying to come here from there own country? Why do you think there are so many illiegal immigrants? Maybe they just like the pretty landscape.

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    This nation should provide a college education for everyone who can do it. There should only be public schools -- from kindergarden to college. The poor, the rich and the middle, the black, the brown and the purple, the believers and the non-believers should all be in a school system together[/QUOTE]


    There are a few Europian nations that offer this, please feel free to re-locate yourself and family there, just be willing to pay the 80-85% taxes. I guess it wouldn't be to bad to bust your tail through college. Work for 10-15 years to make $400,000 a year, but to only bring home 80,000. That sounds pretty screwed up if you ask me.

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    The hardships I experienced make me understnad that life is too valuable to waste on unnecessary struggle. There is always struggle enough. When we are capable of easing that struggle as a society we should pounce on it and not stroke our egos with rugged individualist fantasies.[/QUOTE]

    I for one, hope that I never see that day. I surely don't want to see this great country, turn into a country of panzies that expect everything to be handed to them. Sorry friend, life just doesn't work that way. This country is set up so that the hard working can persue there dreams, as YOU have done. You worked hard, so that you could go to school. You are a better person because of it.

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    Repubs can imagine that Saddam is Hitler all they want but it is not true. If any Fascist can be compared to Saddam it is Mussolini -- a big bag of wind. The USA has supported dicatators (Marcos, Pinochet, Shah of Iran, Saddam, Batista, Mubuto, and on and on) who murdered and raped their people and nations for decades. To now argue that we attacked Saddam because we care so much about the poor suffering people (whom we allowed to suffer for over 30 years, thank you) is an act of politcal hypocricy the likes of which boggles the mind. It is such an awlful lie. We are there so we will not have $5 a gallon gasoline. All the rest is bs. The day Saddam could pull a Pearl Harbor in this world is the day it rains pennies from heaven.[/QUOTE]

    You must have blinders on my friend. This is a new world. A world where pearl harbors are a thing of the past. Today, all it takes is money, and a few crazys to hijack a few planes, or lest we forget 9/11? Nukes in brief cases, chemical and biological warefare, there are so many ways for some crazy fool with a ton of money to bring the war to our streets.

    While we are on the subject, you talk about your standard of life.
    Please answer me this, is YOUR standard of life the only thing this country should worry about?

    Casper

  3. #43

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    I am stunned that Repubs would justify Hitler in any way. I guess they do admire him deep down in some sick way.[/QUOTE]

    hi,

    Ok now you're making assumptions. You got angry when someone said you made communistic statements. Now you say me and all republicans admire hitler in a sick way. Well that's untrue. We don't see eye to eye (duh, right? [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif[/img] ) so let's just leave it at that.

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    I am reassured that the Repub weapon inspectors in Iraq found "rooms, documents, computers and offices." Imagine my surprise that they still cannot find WMD as we were told that Saddam could bomb us in 45 seconds. Surely, such an awesome and terrifying force must have consisted of more than rooms, offices, computers and documents.[/QUOTE]

    No it wasn't repub. weapon inspectors, it was US troops that found them. What proof do you have that there aren't any WMD? What proof do i have that there are WMD? Well first there's pentagon's proof. The pentagon used satellite photography to take pictures of the numerous illegal missile building facilities. The Kay report (which just came out this week) confirms the pre-war intelligence. Here’s a quote about it: "The Kay Report also confirmed our prewar intelligence that indicated Iraq was developing missiles with ranges up to 1,000 kilometers. Similarly, Kay substantiated our reports that Iraq had tested an unmanned aerial vehicle to 500 kilometers, also in violation of U.N. resolutions.
    What's more, he and his team found that elaborate efforts to shield illicit programs from inspection persisted even after the collapse of Saddam's regime. Key evidence was deliberately eliminated or dispersed during the postwar period. In a wide range of offices, laboratories and companies suspected of developing weapons of mass destruction, computer hard drives were destroyed, files were burned and equipment was carefully cleansed of all traces of use -- and done so in a pattern that was clearly deliberate and selective, rather than random."

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    We are there so we will not have $5 a gallon gasoline.[/QUOTE]

    This is ridiculous. Who said gas prices were going to go up $5 a gallon unless we attacked Iraq? No one. Here's the top countries we imported oil from in 2002, in order of most imported to least: Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Venezuela, Nigeria, Iraq, United Kingdom, Norway, Angola, Algeria. So Iraq's down on the list at #6. So if we wanted to make war just about oil we'd attack Canada or Saudi Arabia. As i recall these two aren't on out list.


    -buckeye

  4. #44
    It's been one of dem days BigCarnivourKid's Avatar
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    I can't see why anyone would be upset with being called a Communist, let alone being called a Democrat or Republican. These are not something to be ashamed of. They are "lables" which help us catagorize people so that we can say we "know" them and what they want. Pretty much a bunch of nonsense. People are too complex to be defined by a lable. But we do it all the time. For example the lables "Him" and "Her". They tell us only that the person is male or female and based on our upbringing we make assumptions on what they will be able to do in society. As many of you are beginning to realize (and probably have known for some time), many of these assumptions are more prejudice than fact.

    As for Communism, I think it was a marvelous idea. Unfortunately it had one terrible flaw. The same flaw that Democracy has. It was run by people. The reason communism failed is the same reason many goverments have fallen: People ran the goverment. Not angels nor some omniscient loving being, but people. Creatures that for all their good intentions, still tend to put their wants first and not the needs of others. The men who wrote our Constitution realized this flaw in goverment and took steps to prevent the goverment from getting too much power and created a series of checks and balances. As for a two party system, I don't believe we started out as a two party system nor that the forefathers of our country intended a two party system, but that's what we have and from what I've read and seen on the news about other countries, it beats a one party system any day.

    BigCarnivourKid
    a 'Male' who wants an 'unaffiliated party' but is registered a 'Republican'

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  5. #45

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    Hi,

    I did not say you or the Repubs admire Hitler in a sick way; I said it was absolutely sick on all levels and concerning all aspects to admire Hitler -- rising to power or in power -- in any way, shape or form. There is nothing for a moral person to admire there -- nothing. Arnold and you defended aspects of Hitler's history. I addressed that. I never mentioned communism, muchless defended or justified aspects of the careers of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Castro or any other petty dictator. They were all beasts and took the issues of the Left so far afield that they actually became right wing power mad murderers. My calling you on Hitler justifying was based on your own statements. All the commie name calling was just the usual uninformed, kneejerk, talk radio, attack dog, right wing, playing to the audience bs. It didn't bug me. I'd rather be called a commie than a conservative any day. I'd rather fight for an ideal than fight to have more than my neighbor any day. But I am not a commie. I am something much much worse, something that strikes horror into the souls of Repubs. I am an unapologetic, unreformed, unrelenting, old fashioned, proud, FDR loving, New Deal worshipping, LBJ admiring LIBERAL. I am a LIBERAL and I love that dirty word. It is almost as good as sex. LIBERAL. LIBERAL. LIBERAL.
    The WMD report is fascinating but it still lacks one thing -- WMD! He can say Saddam seemed to have them and point to UN illegal rockets all day long but he has still not found anything. That dog don't hunt!
    All the "this is the real world" and "life ain't easy" cliches are not received wisdom or natural truth. The nation we have is based on choices we made. If we made different choices we would have a different "real world". Personally, I would question the moral character of anyone who would not feel motivated to work for 2 million dollars a year after taxes. That is still way more money than anyone needs to live in the lap of luxury. The "lost" 8 million wouldn't have to go to taxes. You could pay your workers more for the labor that created all that wealth so that they could live like you and we would have everyone "a success". You could donate the money right and left. You could pay for better benefits for your workers. You could offer their kids education. You could give them longer vacations. There are a million ways you could distribute that wealth outside of taxation. Everyone worked for it -- not just the owner. It all comes down to a question -- as your Bushwacker loves to preach -- of character. I have always wondered how Christians justify the uncritical acceptance of the selfishness and greed that motivate and drive capitalism. The 2 belief systems seem so radically opposed in both philosophy and action.
    Life is a struggle but there are far better and more humanly enriching struggles that securing bread, water and a roof one's whole life. If you like a world justified only by the most basic of survival needs you are entitled to it. I find it laughable in the midst of obscene wealth.
    I also find it funny that Repubs admire Bush when he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and did not work for anything; whereas, Clinton had to bust his butt to rise to power -- the "little guy" Arnold so loves -- and yet even though he fulfills the Repub Horatio Alger fantasy TOTALLY -- they hate him. Again, a strange irony bordering on hypocracy.
    You wrote:

    "This country is so great because EVERYONE has a chance to be as succesful as they want."

    That's a lie. That is the same kind of mindless propaganda that buried communism. It is naive and a fantasy. A few exceptional individuals make it true in a relatively few cases while the rest live lives of quiet desparation and disappointment. In fact, for the few to be wildly successful they need the many to NOT be as there is not enough for everyone to be well off. The sick side of America's "healthy" love of success is America's even greater love of seeing others fail. We love failure. It makes us feel high and mighty when someone else fails. We feel "chosen". Blessed. We need others to be less than we are so that we can enjoy our success -- since "success" is how we measure people for the most part. Sadly, we have dressed the real impulses lurking in all this in self-satisfying justifications -- "life is hard" "everyone can be a success" -- so as not to disturb our slumber with what is actually real life -- we like others to fail because we are afraid if they succeed that there will not be enough left for "me" to have more.
    Bringing home $80,000 a year is a great wage. Why would anyone of good moral character complain?
    I love pansies -- I have a yard full of them at times. I wish this country would be allowed to evolve beyond the philosophy of the 16th century Spanish conquerers. They lived for GLORY GUNS and GOD. When you boil down the Repub propaganda they are living in a fantasy of glory (power) guns (home and abroad) and God (a theocracy). I am sick of a 21st century, highly complex, multicultural, powerful, urban, scientific based nation being run by people who fantasize themselves to be cowboys on some Hollywood movie set frontier town that never existed in reality. Give me pansies any day (or cps) over Glory Guns and God.
    Yes, today, people are going to nuke us morning, noon and night with a briefcase and they will not be deterred by the knowledge that the second they do we will blow to smithereens any country we even suspect of being involved or providing them aid and comfort. Yes, these terrorists are all suicidal and we are an 800 pound helpless gorilla. The mongral hordes are massing at the world's airports. Do you think for a second that Bin Laden thought he would bring down the twin towers? Of course not. That they ended up falling may have given the monster great glee but he also knew that his life was essentially over. The terrorists want us out of their countries and they want Israel out of the occupied territories. If the nations of the Middle East want to have a civil war over their religion that is their business and we should get well out of their way. If the Middle East had no oil we would not give them the time of day.

    Bobby

  6. #46

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    we have dressed the real impulses lurking in all this in self-satisfying justifications -- "life is hard" "everyone can be a success" -- so as not to disturb our slumber with what is actually real life -- we like others to fail because we are afraid if they succeed that there will not be enough left for "me"
    Quote
    All the "this is the real world" and "life ain't easy" cliches are not received wisdom or natural truth. The nation we have is based on choices we made. If we made different choices we would have a different "real world". Personally, I would question the moral character of anyone who would not feel motivated to work for 2 million dollars a year after taxes. That is still way more money than anyone needs to live in the lap of luxury. The "lost" 8 million wouldn't have to go to taxes. You could pay your workers more for the labor that created all that wealth so that they could live like you and we would have everyone "a success". You could donate the money right and left. You could pay for better benefits for your workers. You could offer their kids education. You could give them longer vacations. There are a million ways you could distribute that wealth outside of taxation. Everyone worked for it -- not just the owner. It all comes down to a question -- as your Bushwacker loves to preach -- of character. I have always wondered how Christians justify the uncritical acceptance of the selfishness and greed that motivate and drive capitalism. The 2 belief systems seem so radically opposed in both philosophy and action.[/QUOTE]


    With all of this babble, please tell me, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD I STRIVE TO DO BETTER? Why wouldn't I, as a person, living in your fantasy world want to do better than the next man? Why would I strive to be a better buisnessman, why would I labor night and day to invent something great? Why would I work 16 hours a day? I wouldn't, because I would have nothing to gain for it. Honor? Please, you liberals are the most honorless sons of dogs I have ever known. "Liberals love to tell us how screwed up we are, then turn around and want 60% of my screw-upedness"
    What is this 16th century crap? Back then you WORKED for what you had. If you where caught begging in the woods they KILLED YOU because they thought you might kill them. They fought for land to be better than the next guy. The poor actually had no chance to get ahead.

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    That's a lie. That is the same kind of mindless propaganda that buried communism. It is naive and a fantasy. A few exceptional individuals make it true in a relatively few cases while the rest live lives of quiet desparation and disappointment. In fact, for the few to be wildly successful they need the many to NOT be as there is not enough for everyone to be well off. The sick side of America's "healthy" love of success is America's even greater love of seeing others fail. We love failure. It makes us feel high and mighty when someone else fails. We feel "chosen". Blessed. We need others to be less than we are so that we can enjoy our success -- since "success" is how we measure people for the most part. Sadly, we have dressed the real impulses lurking in all this in self-satisfying justifications -- "life is hard" "everyone can be a success" -- so as not to disturb our slumber with what is actually real life -- we like others to fail because we are afraid if they succeed that there will not be enough left for "me" to have more.[/QUOTE]


    You know, I take great offense at that last statement, and I shall offer you proof that it is complete and utter horse pucky.

    My father moved to New Orleans 6 months before I was born. My parents lived in a roach motel for 4 months while he worked for a roofing contractor for 6 bucks an hour. They finally got an appartment. When I was 3 he became a foreman, making 9 bucks an hour. 6 years later he became a project manager making $30,000. When I turned 13 he borrowed $100,000 and started his own roofing company. A year later, he bought out the bank, making it HIS company. 9 years later the company is worth 12 million. IF THAT ISN't THE "AMERICAN DREAM" please do tell, what is? This was a man that pulled himself up by his own bootstraps, put in his 16 hours a day, and made it for himself. If a no-body from a town of about 300 people Missouri can move into the city and do that, why can't anyone else? I will tell you why. MOTIVATION!! Half the people in the world think like you, everything should be handed to them. Everything should be free.

    You would rather take away the ideals of hard work, and instead, instill ideals of lazieness. That my friend is idiotic.

    Quote
    we have dressed the real impulses lurking in all this in self-satisfying justifications -- "life is hard" "everyone can be a success" -- so as not to disturb our slumber with what is actually real life -- we like others to fail because we are afraid if they succeed that there will not be enough left for "me" [/QUOTE]


    Let me tell you something buddy. I work my *** off so there will be enough for me and my family. I will make sure there is always enough for me and my family to survive the way I see fit. You know what, I enjoy drinking nice wine. I enjoy buying my daughter nice things. I enjoy the fact that I own my own house at the age of 23. I enjoy traveling. You bet your candy liberal ### that I will work to get what I WANT because I work my tail off for it.

    I'll be perfectly honest with you. You are a very intelligent person. With that said, I could care less what you want, or have.( I don't know if you have any physical disabilaties, if so I retract the statement) I can't make the whole world happy, but I can make my family happy, and thats what I do. PERIOD.

    I give my men at work every opportunity to rise up. Few take the opportunitys we give, most don't. Most don't care to have the responsibility, most are happy "just getting by". Are these the people you speak about me being happy they are failing? Should I feel bad for them? Should I cry because some fool is content getting by with next to nothing?

    I am sorry about the spelling, I am getting emotional and I think it would be best to cut the post short.

    Biggun110- I don't mean to offend, but it does happen, your views may be different than mine, but you still have my respect.


    Casper

  7. #47

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    *applauds Casper*

    Casper, I definately agree with you and I don't even have as impressive of success stories as your family. Both my parents came from very humble beginnings and now they are living a comfortable life through hard work and budgeting.

    Now can we go back to growing plants? [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif[/img]

  8. #48
    Frakkin Toaster Cynic81's Avatar
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    I think both Biggun110 and Casper need to calm down a bit and moderate your views. And end the attacks before the mods come in here and beat the s##t out of you.

    If one of the mods could be so kind as to close this thread, as it seems to have turned into yet another one of those left v. right arguments that will never be resolved. If you guys want to keep debating, open another thread, but I think this one is done. Just to make sure, please stick a rather large fork in it.
    The Best Part About Being a Sociopath is Never Having to Say You're Sorry.

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