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View Poll Results: Survey on Member Religious Preferences - Choose what best describes your beliefs

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  • Far East religions i.e. Taoism, Hinduism, Confuciousism, Buddhism, etc.

    3 2.75%
  • Islamic religions

    0 0%
  • Jewish religions i.e. Messianical Jew, Yiddish, Orthodox etc.

    0 0%
  • Christian religions organized before 1800 A.D.

    19 17.43%
  • Christian religions organized after 1800 A.D.

    24 22.02%
  • Pagan

    4 3.67%
  • Atheist

    23 21.10%
  • Different religion not based on a belief of traditional God(s).

    2 1.83%
  • I draw my beliefs from one or more religious traditions to make it my own.

    16 14.68%
  • Don't affiliate with a religion or have any interest.

    18 16.51%
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Thread: Survey on Member Religious Preferences

  1. #121
    Odysseus's Avatar
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    Hmmm...by what do you come to those conclusions, Peter?
    sigh...
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]is still about a sixth of the time it took Mormons.
    Took mormons to do what exactly?

    By that time the Apostles were killed because of their belief and the tradition in the Roman Catholic church is that Peter was hung upside down! The church you claim as relatively "new" was actually dying and times were hard!

    In the time before Paul was killed, he worked hard visiting Corinth, Ephesus, writing letters to Timothy and writing other congregations of the church in many different cities. He wrote most of the epistles we read in the New Testament. Those epistles helped teach everyone and keep a general agreement in doctrine between the geographically seperated congregations of Christ's followers.

    They were so spread apart from each other it was difficult! After the Apostles were killed their doctrine began to differ radically from each other. The stories passed down from generation to generation within families obviously didn't maintain there agreement as well as you thought. Otherwise, why would they NEED to organize a council to declare a unified belief in God.

    There was a controversy with the perspective on the doctrine from Arius and many who believed in Arius' words. The Church needed a consensus and were called to Nicaea by the Emperor Constantine. There they defined what is believed by many to be the final word on who God and Christ are in relation to each other.

    So, Peter. The people had forgotten enough to have disputations between each other. Even at the end five Bishops would not sign the declaration of one God, after some convincing everyone but two agreed to sign. Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais were exiled because of their disagreement.

    In my opinion, the Council of Nicaea argued doctrine and decided on it using the intelligence of man. I feel that God had no part in it, and I find it unfortunate that the ideas of man at the time skewed the perception of who God is. It is sorry to see that they "convinced" those other three to sign the Nicaean Creed even though originally they did want to. The two who disagreed with it and were exiled for their beliefs is one possible proof that God had no hand in calling those men to council at Nicaea. For if it was God, it would have been handled unanimously or not at all.

    BTW, The Mormon Church recognizes that God, the Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost are three seperate beings. Not a trinity.

    regards, Odysseus
    Odysseus
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  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Odysseus @ April 02 2004,2:07)]In my opinion, the Council of Nicaea argued doctrine and decided on it using the intelligence of man. I feel that God had no part in it, and I find it unfortunate that the ideas of man at the time skewed the perception of who God is. It is sorry to see that they "convinced" those other three to sign the Nicaean Creed even though originally they did want to. The two who disagreed with it and were exiled for their beliefs is one possible proof that God had no hand in calling those men to council at Nicaea. For if it was God, it would have been handled unanimously or not at all.

    BTW, The Mormon Church recognizes that God, the Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost are three seperate beings. Not a trinity.

    regards, Odysseus
    well. I believe the Nicaean Creed is from God. If we all agreed on one thing then there wouldn't have been so many sects in Christianity. Both the Orthodox and the Roman church excummunicated(spelling?) each other. I do believe God had a hand in bringing them together. It was to better clarify what a Roman Catholic was and what they believed.
    I love Vin Diesel!! *Growl* Nobody better talk bad about him or else!!!

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  3. #123

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    No we are coming to the heart of the matter, Jesus many items identified himself directly and indirectly with God the Father as he being the same person. In essence the word 'trinity' (or a better word would be Godhead) teaches that there is 1 God (Deuteronomy £ 6 v 4 to 9 'Hear O isreal the Lord our God is one Lord..

    Therefore, I believe

    1 God
    Father,Son, Holy Spirit each God
    Father, Son, Holy Spirit each distinct.


    Odysseus, Jesus used very much the 'I AM' statement especially throughout the gospel of John, thats why the Jewish authorities got very upset when Jesus said 'Before Abraham was, I AM..' The importance of 'I AM' is God's name (Yahweh) or 'YHWH'. John 1 verse 1 ..a the word was God' clearly identifies Jesus being God. Thats why the JWs have their bible changed freom the original translation a put ..'a god' instead.

    If jesus was merely a spirit of a god with a small g, then Jesus himself would need a mediator and the work of the cross would be insignificant..



    Best Regards

    Mike King

    NCCPG National collection holder of Sarracenia

    http://www.carnivorousplants.uk.com

  4. #124
    rubrarubra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]By that time the Apostles were killed because of their belief and the tradition in the Roman Catholic church is that Peter was hung upside down! The church you claim as relatively "new" was actually dying and times were hard!
    Odysseus, if that is what you call a dying church, look at what is happening in China right now with the underground church.

    What I meant with "a sixth of the time it took the Mormons" is that the council of Nicea decided on what to keep in the Bible after less than three centuries. Mormons then came 15 centuries later and decided for themselves what was God's word and what wasn't.

    In any case I think we've been drifting off topic. Here is a piece from www.mormon.org - "The Apostle Peter prophesied that Jesus would restore His Church before His Second Coming (Acts 3:19–21). Jesus Christ began to restore His Church in its fulness to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1820."

    Acts 3:19-21 refers to the conversion nation of Israel. Jesus said to Peter in Matthew 16:18, "…Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of #### shall not prevail against it." This church has survived for almost 2 millenia. Jesus did not say "Upon this rock I will build my church; and I will have to rebuild it later"

    Peter

  5. #125
    Odysseus's Avatar
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    Mike,

    I don't disagree with you. Jesus is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah." I firmly believe that! In some older versions of the Bible particularly the Tongan translation of the Bible and early German and european translations of the Bible, the phrase "God" created the earth is translated as "Gods". I agree with you that Christ is MASTER and LORD and CREATOR of this universe. He organized it under the direction of His Father. As said in the beginning of John "the Word was with God....the Word was God" I believe Jesus Christ to be the Word with God. I also firmly believe Christ to be God. Not lower case god but upper case. I never said that he was a lower case god. If I forgot to capitilize the name God than I am sorry. I must've miscommunicated my point. Christ was great before He came to the Earth and showed His greatness throughout the trial and pain he went through here for us. The difference between Jesus the Christ as a God before His mortal birth and who He is Now. Is simply that He has a physical Immortal Body. Before He didn't.

    Peter,

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]What I meant with "a sixth of the time it took the Mormons" is that the council of Nicea decided on what to keep in the Bible after less than three centuries. Mormons then came 15 centuries later and decided for themselves what was God's word and what wasn't.

    What do you mean here? We didn't come around deciding for ourselves what was God word and what wasn't. We simply believe in a record made by people on the other side of the world than those of the Bible. We still believe the Bible to be the word of God. We just believe in more God's word. But, everything you, Peter, read in your Bible, I would never claim it to not be from God. I truly believe that your Bible is as true as mine. I use the King James Version. Which is yours? It's probably the same version as mine, so I support your Bible 100%! Please, don't accuse us of thinking otherwise.

    I don't think we are off topic at ALL! The topic of this thread is NOT the Mormons. I only keep replying to claims made here from people who AREN'T Mormon. There are MANY people not replying to this thread but are reading bits and pieces here and there. As a Mormon I couldn't let people read false information about my Church and think that it is the truth. The topic is not Mormons. I just have to keep defending the name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

    You say the "Church" survived 2 millenia. Which Church is that? The only Church that has a claim to have survived since the time of the Apostles is the Roman Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church, Protestant, and the Church of England are all break offs of the Original Roman Catholic Church. So, if you support the idea that the Catholic Church has survived the 2 millenia and IS the Church organized by the Apostles, then why aren't YOU a member of that Church?
    Odysseus
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  6. #126
    rubrarubra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]We still believe the Bible to be the word of God. We just believe in more God's word
    That's my point. Your church has decided for itself what is right and what isn't. Not everybody agrees that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

    Now to answer your question about the one part of my argument you even adressed. The reason the Christian church is around at all today is because the apostles planted it. At times different groups have split off because of minor theological differences, but the church has never died out, and is still thriving today.

    Now again:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Here is a piece from www.mormon.org - "The Apostle Peter prophesied that Jesus would restore His Church before His Second Coming (Acts 3:19–21). Jesus Christ began to restore His Church in its fulness to the earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1820."

    Acts 3:19-21 refers to the conversion nation of Israel. Jesus said to Peter in Matthew 16:18, "…Upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of #### shall not prevail against it." This church has survived for almost 2 millenia. Jesus did not say "Upon this rock I will build my church; and I will have to rebuild it later"
    Peter

  7. #127
    Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (rubrarubra @ April 02 2004,3:50)]
    That's my point. Your church has decided for itself what is right and what isn't. Not everybody agrees that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.
    Sigh...

    Peter, I think that is your worst argument yet. You must be getting frustrated. I apologize if I have seemed rude or offensive. Frankly, that last point to your argument which I quoted above is unquestionably ridiculous.

    No, not everyone agrees with the Book of Mormon. My church does. Of course we decided that for OURSELVES. haha, Who IS supposed to decide that for us?

    I think everyone on this forum has decided for themselves what is right what isn't and they are not one bit wrong for it! Everyone has their own idea of what is right and what isn't. Don't know why my Church is any different.

    Now about Acts 3: 19-21. Here is the King James Version of the text:

    19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    (New Testament | Acts 3:19 - 21)

    I am not sure what you want me to debate about. You quoted a different scripture from Paul not Acts in your last point and I didn't know what about Acts you found odd. From the text I have bolded, you will see parts in that scripture where it discusses a "refreshing" or a "restitution." It isn't the only scripture discussing the matter of a time of restitution but Mormon.org only used that one apparently to support our belief in a need for a restoration of the Church the Apostles began.

    My Church firmly believes alot had been lost from the time of Christ to the time of Nicaea. Mainly the Authority to lead The Church. Unlike you, Peter, I believe the church began by the Apostles had MUCH more organization than you think. It was a REAL organization with Leaders and Pastors and Bishops, etc. whom all reported to the Head of the Church Peter, the Apostle whom Christ chose:

    13 ¶ And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
    14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
    15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphæus, and Simon called Zelotes,
    16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

    (New Testament | Luke 6:13 - 16)

    Christ chose twelve of His disciples who followed Him, and ordained them to the calling of an Apostle by the end of Christ's mortal ministry. After Judas Iscariot fell to suicide, the Apostles felt it IMPORTANT to fill his spot and choose another so that the Apostle's would remain the number of twelve:

    24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
    25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
    26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    (New Testament | Acts 1:24 - 26)

    This act of the Apostle's was VERY organized and was done through revelation given through prayer. Matthias was numbered among the 11 and became part of the Ministry and Apostleship. This was a very important detail, which the orginal 12 Apostles respected. No doubt Christ Himself taught them that if one of the Twelve was to die, they needed to pray and find out who Christ had appointed as a successor. Not to a powerful position, no, simply a position of Divine duty to preach the resurrection and Gospel of Jesus Christ. It wasn't decided upon using politics. But, the decision was made through prayer.

    The Apostles had the authority given of them to preach the Gospel. But, that was the same mission of the seventy Christ had chosen. Also was it a commandment of all the Saints, to spread the word of Christ. However, the Apostles had a SPECIAL AUTHORITY. This authority was to bless in the name of Christ. Work miracles. These blessings was also the manner in which one received the Holy Ghost after baptism. In these following versus, Phillip teaches and baptizes a group in Samaria. However, he must not have the authority to give the Holy Ghost only to Baptize. The Apostles heard of these new converts in Samaria and sent Peter and John to "lay their hands upon them" and bestow upon them the Gift of the Holy Ghost:

    But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
    13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
    14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
    15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
    17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

    (New Testament | Acts 8:12 - 18)

    Their calling was given MORE authority to act in the name of God than other calling in the Church. Paul speaks of this calling that he was also later on called and ordained to by Christ himself:

    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    (New Testament | Ephesians 2:19 - 20)

    Jesus Christ was and IS the Chief cornerstone. By the time of the Nicaean Creed there was no foundation of Apostles and Prophets. Only Bishops of the many branches of the Church on part of the world. Constantine called together those Bishops for the decision on the Creed. Had there been Apostles or Prophets he would have called on them to gather to Nicaea. But there weren't. Because the Apostles were gone many simple truths were lost. It is sad. But, thanks be to God. Because in our day He has begun the "refreshing" and "restoring" of these truths to us."

    As prophecied the foundation of Christ's Church has been rebuilt and is now in existence. I don't expect any of you to believe my firm conviction, but there are men who are the 12 Apostles today and there are Prophets in our day! The foundation has been rebuilt! I testify of that! It began one spring morning in 1820 when God, The Father, and Jesus Christ both in body and person condescended to a young humble boy in Palmyra, New York. Christ Himself prepared men, began, founded, and rebuilt the foundation of His Church in our days! Upon Apostles and Prophets it was founded with He Himself as the Chief Cornerstone. That is my witness, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

    Odysseus
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  8. #128
    noah's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    I find it interesting that so many "simple truths" were lost. What were the "simple truths"? Were they the current differences between the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints and mainstream protestant doctrine? If so, how is it that these "simple truths" were lost so easily? And why, if they were "simple truths", do they disagree with other truths clearly laid out in the Bible? I think that the Bishops and church elders that gathered at Nicea had quite a good feeling amongst themselves for the truths of the faith, especially as they were led by the spirit (assumedly). I find it highly unlikely that, with 12 apostles, 70 disciples, and many other followers so many big "simple truths" were lost so easily in that kind of a time span, or lost at all in a church led by the spirit (As they were for hundreds of years and still are in many denominations).

    I have no problem with modern day revelations. I fully believe that God can and does talk to us now. However - and this is the focal point of our disagreement - the "revelations" have to line up with current scripture to be true (God does not change) and any so called "revelations" coming from a prophet who only has a 10% success rate in prophesies must be disregarded altogether.

    "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously..." Deut 18:21-22 (See also Isaiah 8:20, 9:15)

    Unless you can prove that everything that the Mormon church now teaches lines up with scripture (and isn't just vaguely supported by a word here and there) AND that any revelations came from a prophet whose prophecies have all come true, the teachings of your church are invalid. I don't mind you following Mormonism, if you really believe it is true and it makes you happy. But don't call your church a Christian church if disagree with basic Christian doctrine in so many ways and have a belief system based on - what seems to me to be - a false prophet.

    God bless,

    -noah

    P.S. Please don't take this as a personal attack on or your beliefs. I'm simply stating that your church's doctrine as it now stands can not comply with Christian doctrine.

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