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View Poll Results: Survey on Member Religious Preferences - Choose what best describes your beliefs

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  • Far East religions i.e. Taoism, Hinduism, Confuciousism, Buddhism, etc.

    3 2.75%
  • Islamic religions

    0 0%
  • Jewish religions i.e. Messianical Jew, Yiddish, Orthodox etc.

    0 0%
  • Christian religions organized before 1800 A.D.

    19 17.43%
  • Christian religions organized after 1800 A.D.

    24 22.02%
  • Pagan

    4 3.67%
  • Atheist

    23 21.10%
  • Different religion not based on a belief of traditional God(s).

    2 1.83%
  • I draw my beliefs from one or more religious traditions to make it my own.

    16 14.68%
  • Don't affiliate with a religion or have any interest.

    18 16.51%
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Thread: Survey on Member Religious Preferences

  1. #145

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    Aaron,
    The thing is one cannot go against scripture, Ephesions Ch 4 V5 one Lord, one faith, one Baptism V6 ONE GOD, ...
    Collosians 1 V19 For in him (Jesus) the Fullness of God was pleased to dwell... That literally means that God dwelt in Christ!

    There is a better analogy for Trinity or Godhead; in physics, water can exist in its 3 physical states at the same time (triple point) Ice, water and vapour.
    Best Regards

    Mike King

    NCCPG National collection holder of Sarracenia

    http://www.carnivorousplants.uk.com

  2. #146
    Odysseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Mike King @ April 06 2004,6:33)]Aaron,
    The thing is one cannot go against scripture, Ephesions Ch 4 V5 one Lord, one faith, one Baptism V6 ONE GOD, ...
    Collosians 1 V19 For in him (Jesus) the Fullness of God was pleased to dwell... That literally means that God dwelt in Christ!

    There is a better analogy for Trinity or Godhead; in physics, water can exist in its 3 physical states at the same time (triple point) Ice, water and vapour.
    Mike,

    I don't doubt that there are many ideas and analogies which can prove that one thing can ALSO be three. I find no problem with the analogies, but I am not convinced that God, the Eternal Father and Jesus, the Christ are one being by them either.

    Using your same scripture you quoted:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    [ New Testament -- Ephesians 4:4-6 ]
    In the following verse from the text you quoted, it makes reference to "One God and Father of all". Using the statement you made, that we can't go against scripture, I can suppose you believe in ALL the words of the Bible. Here, even in the words you quoted are contradictions to your belief. That is, IF you read verse 6 along with verse 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    Why after Paul mentioned "One Lord" would he need to refer to "One God and Father" if they are discussing the same person? Is he repeating himself? Perhaps, just describing the other facets of "The Lord"? Could be, but why then didn't he just say "One Lord, who is God and Father of all" ?

    Why would he be vague here, when his whole statement was intended to clear up things for the Ephesians?

    Unless, of course, he WAS being clear and was referring to two seperate entities. ONE A Lord God and TWO A God Father of All. Personally, I believe he was being clear, and I think it IS clear that he went to the effort of mentioning both at different times, because he was talking about two different entities. 1. Jesus Christ the Lord and God of All. 2. God, the Eternal Father, Father of all including Christ.

    On another note of that same verse:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]6 ...who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    "And in you all." This statement was made by Paul. That God was "in" us all. With your references to Colossians speaking of God dwelling literally in Christ. Would you not agree that in referencing to Ephesians 4:6 that God literally dwells in us? Are we then God too?

    Respectfully, Mike, if you are to assume the saying was literal in Colossians or others already used, then you would have to assume all similar references from the Bible are literal. We too would be included in the Trinity and both of us know, that we are not.

    To end, I suppose you nor I have never seen the face of God. Not yet at least. Nor would we ever claim to our deaths that we have in fact seen the face of God. However, Joseph Smith saw the faces of God, the Eternal Father and Jesus Christ, and proclaimed it even unto his death. What he saw as a young man was two seperate beings. I believe in his personal witness. Sorry, for doing so, but I firmly believe in his testimony.

    Hope this is received well. I certainly meant well. I just want to shed another perspective on what scriptures which have been consistently used to satisfy the belief of a Trinity.
    Odysseus
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  3. #147
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    I'll put it simply. Jesus ,Himself, says that there will be false Christs in the end times, and that He would return once-and-for-all on one day. He said watch out for people saying "look, He's over there". He said that people will not be able to mistake His return. I personally(Biblicallly) don't see Him returning until it has been decided by the Father, even to stop and talk with Joseph Smith. He said his disciples were to be the ones to go out into the world and make more disciples. In other words, He has said all there needs to be said, and now it's up to we "disciples" to proclaim what He "has said". Do you see the finality of this command? In addition, where are the other witnesses of his appearing to Joseph Smith and do their testimonies agree? For there must be other testimonies and they must agree to be truth. Does the book of Mormon contradict Old Testament and New Testament Doctrines? "Test all things; hold fast what is good". 1 Thessalonians 5:10 NKJV

  4. #148
    Odysseus's Avatar
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    Hey Zappafan,
    When Joseph Smith saw Jesus Christ in 1820 he was only a 14 year old boy and he was alone. So there aren't any witnesses to that account. But later on there were witnesses to the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and witnesses to having seen Christ, and witnesses to having seen Angels and etc.

    I know you think that Christ coming to Joseph Smith would contradict His Second Coming. However, it was NOT His second coming in ALL His Glory. It was simply a visit to one young boy. What you said here:
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]e said that people will not be able to mistake His return. I personally(Biblicallly) don't see Him returning until it has been decided by the Father, even to stop and talk with Joseph Smith.
    If you believe that Christ would NOT return to the Earth EXCEPT for the SECOND COMING, how do you explain his visiting Paul the Apostle after He had already told the Apostles He would not return until the end?
    King James Version | New Testament Acts 9:3-7, 17
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
    4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
    5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
    6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, awhat wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
    7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
    The men with Saul couldn't see Christ but heard a voice. Saul however SAW Christ as was alluded to by Ananias later in his blessing of Saul.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath csent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
    If you can't accept that Christ would return to the Earth for only one man than you can't accept Saul as a Chosen vessel. For, Christ appeared unto Saul who has been persecting Him, and chose Paul to be an Apostle and called Paul to do a great missionary work.

    If you accept Paul, you'd have to accept the possibility of Joseph Smith. Whether or not you believe Smith was lying, that is for you to decide. As for me, I know him to be an honest man.
    Odysseus
    Wife and I in the Netherlands. Sure miss living out there.

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  5. #149
    Odysseus's Avatar
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    If any of you would like to read Joseph Smith's account of his visit with Christ and God the Eternal Father, or would like to now how he found the Book of Mormon. Here is a link that will take you to his account of it all.

    Joseph Smith History written by himself

    You don't have to believe what he says, but it would be nice if you would read what he says about his experience rather than what others say negatively. This is the best source about what I believe happened with Josepn Smith.

    Thanks to those who read it. And anyone who only wants to read about his account of seeing God and Jesus Christ read 8 - 20 that isn't much more than 5 minutes reading.
    Odysseus
    Wife and I in the Netherlands. Sure miss living out there.

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  6. #150

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    Hi Aaron,
    I have an idea; please give me your email address and I will send you teaching notes on the Trinity by scanned docoments
    Best Regards

    Mike King

    NCCPG National collection holder of Sarracenia

    http://www.carnivorousplants.uk.com

  7. #151
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    Quite simply put, any further "revelation" from Christ (this includes appearances, utterances, etc., are found in the Holy scriptures. Paul had many witnesses with him when God spoke. They heard a voice but saw no one(Acts 9:7). He also had Ananias, who was sceptical of Paul(Acts 10-17). The book of Mormon has never been accepted, even now, as Holy Scriptures. The Bible as we know, it apart from the book of Mormon, has been "tested" by the word of God itself and found to be authoratitive. This is called the canon. The books of the Bible are included in the canon. The canon are all of the books of the bible and no more . The canon means "these books" are the very words of God.

  8. #152
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    Hey Zappafan,

    I have replied to several posts in the past with distinct details and revealed alot about my Church. I have done it using scriptural texts from the Bible and using my own testimony. After all that, nothing changed. I just don't have the interest to bring up more information about my church unless people are going to hear me. I could very well spend an hour typing up instances that parallel your mention of Paul having many people with him when he saw Christ. There are many instances in the early days of the Church where other people witnessed Christ. But, honestly, you and I both know that no matter what references and story I spend my time writing up on here no one is going to respect my church.

    I have heard everyone's opinion on here about my church and I felt that I did a good job dealing with the opposing views and calmly responded and explained the true beliefs of my church. But, nonetheless, the opinions have not changed. And I don't want to waste my time if nobody is open minded about my church.

    If you legitimately want to hear about my church and want to know about instances where there are more witnesses than just Joseph Smith, than go to this website : http://www.ldsces.org/inst_ma....ere.pdf the PDF file is of a great book about the Church History. It is very clear, well written, and strong with brevity.

    At least this way you can find everything out on your own and maybe you'll understand my way of thinking. Because learning about it on your own, is exactly what I did.

    Good Luck.
    Odysseus
    Wife and I in the Netherlands. Sure miss living out there.

    My growlist
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