Survey on Member Religious Preferences

[Odysseus]

Hey Peter,

Thanks for your reply, but did you check out my link?  I don't think you understand the MANY witnesses of Joseph Smith dictating the text of the Book of Mormon to a scribe.  There is no doubt he completed the WHOLE book in under 70 days!  Their was no part of his intelligence or mine or anyone I know who could write it in that time.  Plus, what exactly did Joseph have to gain by inventing the Book of Mormon?  

 He was an honest man, and definitely no creator of the longest ongoing successful hoax of all time.    

On the other hand, If satan had a part in Joseph Smith and the organization of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, what did Satan have to gain?  Where in the people of my church do you observe Satan's plan?  Sigh, I only wish you could look me straight in the eyes and accuse me and my faith of following the devil.  

 I know you wouldn't think ill of me or any "Mormon."  Hehe, I don't think it follows the plan of Satan to build a righteous, family oriented 11 million plus member church.  If satan wants to destroy the family why provoke people to preserve the family?

Mike King,

The truth about our Church is, that there is no worship to Joseph Smith.  I don't worship him.

 He was the first man in our day to be called as a Prophet.  Through him the Lord Jesus Christ organized HIS church. The Church of Christ.  Smith was merely a tool.  He had many faults as we all do, and I do not revere him as anyone greater than Christ.

To be a member of our Church is being subject to the Lord Jesus Christ.  As I feel that you are also subject to the Judgment of Jesus Christ in your Church too.  There is no mystery of my witness of Christ.  Above all I hope that is the major consensus.  That Odysseus believes in Christ.  

 

[wolfpackgurl]

yup as the keeper of heaven in south park said. Mormon, yes Mormon is theright religion to get into heaven lol. but seriously i guess a Mormon would know more about their own religion, but on the other hand we are on the outside looking in and what we see is different from what you see.

 

[rubrarubra]

Yes, Odysseus, I followed your link and read the page. According to the Koran, Mohammed also received a revelation from an "angel". When I referred to Satan, I did not imply that Mormons worship him or anything. What I meant is that he easily could have appeared as an angel and given Smith a twisted revelation. His goal is to draw us away from God.
Also, you say Smith was the first prophet to appear since centuries ago. However, he happens to have been a false prophet, as you would know if you followed the link. Smith may not have been a perfect man, but if you read the Old Testament, you will find that all the prophets God sent only prophesied truthfully. How do you explain that?

 

[Capslock]

What's "true" and proper is clearly in the eyes of the beholder. To these atheist eyes, the differences between Joseph Smith, and the authors of the books collected into the Bible by the Council of Nicea are minor. Sure, each text can be analyzed for self-contradictions, but the correspondence of either one to some actual "truth" is equally subjective. As much as one hopes, and as deeply convinced as any of us are of what is true and what isn't, all of us are fallible, subject to confusion and error, and beset by preconceptions. This includes our ability to judge the truth of theses sacred texts.

From my perspective, Odysseus's belief in the doctrine of the Mormon church is no different from anyone else's belief in the doctrine of whatever their church is. His claim to be a "Christian" is every bit as valid as anyone elses.

This doesn't mean we can't have debate (which I love to do), but rather that we ought not assume that any of us has a monopoly on the truth, or that we must correct the errors of belief in others. All religion, and indeed all beliefs require a leap of faith, the success of which can only be judged by each individual for themselves.

Capslock

 

[Odysseus]

Quote[/b] (rubrarubra @ Mar. 31 2004,2:29)]What I meant is that he easily could have appeared as an angel and given Smith a twisted revelation.  His goal is to draw us away from God.

 You must not know very many people of my church.  Why do you think that we are drawn away from God?  Every belief you have about Christ being our Savior, we seem to share in equal parts!  

 How then am I turned away from God?

Quote[/b] ]Also, you say Smith was the first prophet to appear since centuries ago.  However, he happens to have been a false prophet, as you would know if you followed the link.   Smith may not have been a perfect man, but if you read the Old Testament, you will find that all the prophets God sent only prophesied truthfully.  How do you explain that?

I am sorry.  But I have read that link and it is the sound of men contemplating sentences given and translating them in their own ways.  The link mentions "Prophecies of Joseph Smith NOT fulfilled" does that imply that there are prophecies which DID come true?  I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet.  Alike even John the Beloved many prophecies of Joseph have not been fulfilled because it is not time.  

As Capslock said an amount of Faith is required.  That is the EXACT point!  God's plan is not PROVEN, but we are tested with contradictions to learn for ourselves how far our faith will take us.  I have faith that even through the mistakes of Paul, Peter, and etc. that their words are true.  Christ existed and died on the cross and arose on the third resurrected in glory.  Alike their mistakes, Joseph Smith has made them.  I know he is was a prophet of God, and I know that God works through prophets.  

If you believe in false prophets you MUST believe in its opposite.  TRUE PROPHETS.  Now, who ARE then the true prophets of our day?  Prophets not unlike Moses who spoke for God and leads us through revelation today?  Who, Peter, do you follow as a Prophet?  

 Seriously, you claim to follow all of God's word but you haven't spoken about your own religion.  Does it have Apostles and Prophets?   Leaders who aren't paid clergy who lead your Church honestly?  

I think it is an interesting fact that since my church has accrued billions of dollars in investments and spends millions on Temples and Church buildings worldwide.  It is interesting that with all that money NOT ONE of our Prophet's have taken his leadership priviledges and embezzled any of that money.  

Our Prophet's who you claim are "wolves" in Sheep's clothing, seem to have an unbelievable amount of integrity and honesty in the face of so much wealth to be gained!  

 They are honest men.  Honest and reliable and I will continue to follow them because they represent a Christ who is perfect and honest and reliable.

 

[wolfpackgurl]

When did Joseph Smith die?

 

[Mike King]

Just examinining some of the Mormon beliefs: Odysseus, you say that Christ was created in the same way man was created. Please read John 1, V1 and V14.. and also Gen 1, 26,27.
You also belive that from the article of faith " we believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" This is complete twisting of the truth. The Bible says in Romans Ch 3 v21 to 26 . In short its simple faith in God alone which saves..

 

[rubrarubra]

Capslock, men may become confused about the truth, but God does not. I am simply trying to uphold the truth so that people see a clear image of the truth as seen in God's word, which is very easily confused by compromise.

Odysseus, about 1 in 10 of Smith's prophecies have been fulfilled. I could do that well myself. However, not one prophecy in the Old Testament has proven to be false, though many have already been fulfilled.
When I say Mormons are drawn away from God, I mean that by following mixed truth you cannot experience the whole truth as God meant for you, and you are separated from God.
As for me. I have a relationship with God, which takes the highest priority in my life. If follow him by faith, and by his word in the Bible. I try to model myself after Christ. I don’t follow any prophet, but instead, God’s word which is spoken through them. We don’t need prophets like Moses anymore. Now that we are redeemed by Jesus, we can speak directly to God, without a priest or a prophet in between.
You say leaders in the CLDS are righteous and honest. The Pharisees and Saducees were some of the most righteous people of their time, and yet Jesus said in Matthew ch. 5 “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
There have been many leaders in the Church who find themeselves in a high position, and somehow it gets to their heads, God loses his importance in their lives, and they find themselves doing terrible things. Man is fallen, and as you said, even the best people aren't perfect.

Peter

 

[Mike King]

Just to confirm what Peter says, we have the Holy Spirit which is described by Jesus as 'Counsellor' and 'Helper' who was sent by Jesus after the ascension.

 

[Mike King]

Capslock,
I would say if you look at the character of jesus and his claims: There are 3 possibilities:

1 Jesus was a liar
2 Jesus was a lunatic
3 Jesus was telling the truth and he was almighty God in human form

You then have to weigh up the 3 options and ask yourself 'what is right?'

If it is true, then the consequences are very important and can't be ignored!

 

[Odysseus]

Quote[/b] (rubrarubra @ Mar. 31 2004,4:59)]
Odysseus, about 1 in 10 of Smith's prophecies have been fulfilled.  I could do that well myself.  However, not one prophecy in the Old Testament has proven to be false, though many have already been fulfilled.

Peter, I get the feeling that no matter what I ask you, your response will be similar to this one.  When I respond to you I use facts about my church.  You respond with statements like "1 in 10 of Smith's prophecies have been fulfilled."  That is a mighty allegation.  

 Have you found out that statistic on your own study, or are you quoting info from a webpage dedicated to fight against my church?  If so, do you accept all they say as the final truth?  That is like getting job referrals from your enemies.  Hard to hear the good from enemies who focus on the bad.  

Quote[/b] ]When I say Mormons are drawn away from God, I mean that by following mixed truth you cannot experience the whole truth as God meant for you, and you are separated from God.

 

Do you really know that much about my church to make that claim that we are NOT experiencing the whole truth?  I fear that you have stopped debating our difference in faith, but have begun assuming you are right and that all differences I have are wrong.  Please keep this friendly and open minded.

Quote[/b] ] I don’t follow any prophet, but instead, God’s word which is spoken through them.  We don’t need prophets like Moses anymore.  Now that we are redeemed by Jesus, we can speak directly to God, without a priest or a prophet in between.

Sure you do.  I don't equate following with worshiping.  I don't worship my Prophet.  No way!  Just as you said I follow the words of God which are coming from the mouths of prophets modern and old.  You say that we don't need Prophets like Moses anymore.  Could you mean that honestly?  Do you really look at the world today and say to yourself, "We are much smarter than the people were in the day of Moses and don't need a prophet to direct us and help us stay on path."  

 Peter, I sincerely don't find us much better than the people who while Moses was gone created the golden calf!  In fact, I fear the world is as corrupted as the city of Sodom and Gomorrah, and we NEED a Prophet bringing us DIRECT revelation from God now more than EVER!  

On your second point, I agree with you!  We do receive personal revelation through the Holy Ghost!  We have the potential to do that everyday!  But, we don't receive revelation concerning the whole world.  We simply receive guidance and revelation for our own lives and loved ones we have dependent on us.  But I for example couldn't receive revelation for the life of Mike King and he couldn't receive the same about mine.  We aren't entitled revelation for others.  But, Prophets receive words intended for the world, and they like Isaiah write it down for all to hear.  Plus, Prophets see the face of God, not just simply hear His voice.

Quote[/b] ]There have been many leaders in the Church who find themeselves in a high position, and somehow it gets to their heads, God loses his importance in their lives, and they find themselves doing terrible things.  Man is fallen, and as you said, even the best people aren't perfect.
Peter

Are you referring "Church" to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints?  Because I don't know of a single prophet of my church who has as you say " somehow it gets to their heads, God loses his importance in their lives, and they find themselves doing terrible things. "  Do you have any references for me that I can learn about?

thanks!  Odysseus  

 

[wolfpackgurl]

About not needing priest and prophets to get through God. Sure that's fine but I'm Catholic and I feel that it is good for me to talk to priest through God. I'm gonna join Odyssey's side for a turn. Okay here are some things I found out from THEIR meaning www.mormon.org. I found the basic beliefs.

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon this the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

 

[wolfpackgurl]

Quote[/b] (rubrarubra @ Mar. 30 2004,3:40)]Also, I do not go by what the official website of the LDS.  The JWs website also defends their views as being in line with God's will and the Christian religion.

WPG, you're basically saying there is no real truth, right?

Peter

oh yeah and about that. I believe the JW's have a twisted way of spinning things in the Bible. They take bits and pieces and say this is what God wants w/o truly looking at the whole Bible and saying God wants us to help those that are in need. No matter what even if they need blood.

 

[rubrarubra]

Quote[/b] ]Peter, I get the feeling that no matter what I ask you, your response will be similar to this one. When I respond to you I use facts about my church. You respond with statements like "1 in 10 of Smith's prophecies have been fulfilled." That is a mighty allegation. Have you found out that statistic on your own study, or are you quoting info from a webpage dedicated to fight against my church? If so, do you accept all they say as the final truth? That is like getting job referrals from your enemies. Hard to hear the good from enemies who focus on the bad.

I made my statistic after reading the list of prophecies made by Smith, both those that were and weren't fulfilled. The fact that it is on a website challenging your church is just due to the lack of similar information on LDS websites. I try to ignore all the conclusions made on such websites, but draw my own conlusions.

Quote[/b] ]Do you really know that much about my church to make that claim that we are NOT experiencing the whole truth? I fear that you have stopped debating our difference in faith, but have begun assuming you are right and that all differences I have are wrong.

I am still trying to debate differences in our faith. My point is that mixed truth, especially when that which is added contradicts the original, is not truth.

Quote[/b] ]You say that we don't need Prophets like Moses anymore. Could you mean that honestly? Do you really look at the world today and say to yourself, "We are much smarter than the people were in the day of Moses and don't need a prophet to direct us and help us stay on path." Peter, I sincerely don't find us much better than the people who while Moses was gone created the golden calf! In fact, I fear the world is as corrupted as the city of Sodom and Gomorrah, and we NEED a Prophet bringing us DIRECT revelation from God now more than EVER!

I do not think we are smarter or better than the people in the Old Testament. They needed a priest to go before them to God, in order to communicate with him. They needed prophets to tell them what God had to tell them. They did not have Bibles to read. They also had to make animal sacrifices to pay for their sin, as Christ hadn't taken on the sin of the world at that point. Now that we are redeemed, we can talk directly to God, he can talk directly to us, and we are guided by His word and the Holy Spirit.

With the last part I referred to the Christian church in general. However, Joseph Smith himselph practiced poligamy (the marriage of several wives). God set up marriage between one man and one and woman when he created Eve to keep Adam company, then later modeled it in the relationship between Christ and the Church. See Ephesians 5 Smith had to justify his actions, so he made sure books such as Jacob allowed polygamy. I bring up this one example as an answer to your inquiries, but I do not want to bring out the dirt on anyone else in either of our Churches.

Peter

 

[rubrarubra]

Quote[/b] ]yeah I'm saying there is really no real truth to anything.

WPG, is that right?
If it isn't... since you don't bleive there is any real truth, than why do go to the trouble as a Catholic to attend masses or anything? Without truth there is also no right or wrong, nor any meaning in life, since we are all chasing after nothing.
Peter

 

[wolfpackgurl]

There is no truth b/c everything is in what you BELIEVE! If there was truth to anything then wouldn't everybody agree on that same thing as being the truth and if it wasn't the truth then they would all agree that it is false. To me the truth is what I believe to be true. I follow my Church b/c I BELIEVE what they say is the truth and their ideas are what I BELIEVE.

 

[Odysseus]

Peter, there are several questions I hope you will answer. You have not given me clear responses to some of them. Not ones that I could relay without worries of misquoting you. Also, I have a few others. If you could answer these following questions in order and do it using the quote feature of this forum. i.e.

Quote[/b] ]1. What is your name?

My name is John Doe.

That way I can be clear on your position.

THanks!

Real quick on polygamy, less than 4 % of our church at the time practiced polygamy. And I regret your implication that Joseph Smith took on more wives for his own enjoyment and tried to "justify" it. If you have read more on our history, you would come across an account where Joseph was pained and tearful about the revelation of taking on another wife.

Here are my questions:

1. What is the most logical foolproof explanation for the origin of the Book of Mormon?

2. What is your church's name, and according to your church what is the whole truth?

3. What prophecies of Joseph Smith came true?

4. What do you like about the Mormon church?

To answer some basic points brought up earlier, here are some of my replies.

WPG, Joseph Smith died on 27th of June, 1844. To maybe answer more curiosity. Here is a quick Chronology:
spring of 1820 -- Joseph Smith (14 yrs. old) prays to God asking him what church at the time in Palmyra, New York he should join. His family was half Methodist, Presbyterian. He wasn't sure which to join so he followed KJV James 1:5 and asked God for wisdom. Joseph was answered by a visit of God the Father and Jesus Christ. (Joseph's first criticism was that he claimed God and Jesus Christ to be seperate beings. Thanks to that visit in 1820 to a young boy, the world can KNOW what has unfortunately been skewed by the Niceaen creed, that God the Father and Jesus Christ were in fact seperate beings! Not the trinity so created by the council in Nicea.)

September 21st - 22nd, 1823 -- First appearances of the angel Moroni.
Sept. 22nd 1827 -- After four years of preparation the Angel Moroni entrusts Joseph Smith with the records which were buried for over a 1000 years and from these records Joseph Smith translates with the power of God what is today's Book of Mormon.
May 1829 -- Joseph Smith receives from James, Peter, and John and John the Baptist the authority for the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek Priesthood. (True visitations from these same men from the New Testament. I testify that these things are true! Smith was visited by those great men!)
Fall 1829 -- First print of the Book of Mormon
April 6th, 1830 -- Church of Jesus Christ organized.
April 26th. 1838 -- Revelation revealed that the name of the church would add "of Latter-day Saints." (8 years after its organization the Church recieved the final words of its name)

That is really a 2% history timeline. But, for WPG who wanted to know Joseph Smith's death date it should be somewhat interesting. Anyone wanting to know the full history check out these book PDF Versions and other stuff here on the LDS.org/church history

I promise this will be my longest post. Thanks for being patient with it.

Odysseus

 

[wolfpackgurl]

does your church believe in polygamy?

 

[Odysseus]

Not at all. We don't believe in polygamy. At one time as I mentioned before there were less than 4% that were asked through revelation to practice polygamy. Thus, not just anyone in our church who wanted more wives could practice it. If they did so without consent, then they were excommunicated. That is why today there are several break offs of our church who CALL themselves mormon and still practice polygamy. These people don't belong to our church.

So, no we don't practice polygamy. And I am thankful for that! I like having only one wife!

Odys

 

[rubrarubra]

My name is Peter Elhardt.

Quote[/b] ]1. What is the most logical foolproof explanation for the origin of the Book of Mormon?

Well, if you want foolproof, that would be that Smith made it all up. Since several chapters quote KJV texts this could well account for that explanation. Also, there are minor dissimilarities between accounts in the Book of Mormon and the Bible. This sounds like someone who knew the Bible pretty well, but made a few mistakes. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John also were imperfect, but the four gospels agree perfectly.

The other option is that Satan appeared to Smith as an angel and gave him false revelations, and Smith, beleiving this, wrote up the Book of Mormon. As I said earlier, Mohammed also supposedly received revelations from an angel of God.

Both of these are logical and foolproof options.

Quote[/b] ]2. What is your church's name, and according to your church what is the whole truth?

Well, I attend a church called Sonrise Christian Fellowship of Simi Valley (a Foursquare church), and a bible study attended and led by people mostly around my age (teenagers.) Both groups know the Bible to be the whole truth and we study and learn from it. I do not consider myself a member of either church, but a member of the Family of Christ.

Quote[/b] ]3. What prophecies of Joseph Smith came true?

PROPHECIES OF JOSEPH SMITH WHICH WERE FULFILLED (?)
MOVE TO THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS: Aug 6, 1842. HC, George Q. Cannon Diary, Anson Call Diary (which gives the date as 1843), cited in Morris, PJS. Prophecy that the Mormons would continue to suffer affliction and would finally move to the Rocky Mountains and become a mighty people.

FULFILLMENT: Joseph Smith sent scouts West in 1843 to look for a place to settle, and again on Feb 21, 1844 he instructed the Twelve to explore the West. He was considering Oregon, California, and Texas, as well as the Great Basin, as the next Zion. [Quinn p 635] The Mormons did move to the Rocky Mountains and became the most powerful segment of society in Utah, as well as an influential force in several other Western states, a position which they have maintained and continue to strengthen.

However, the Call diary was not actually written until years later, from memory, and the manuscript of the HC dates only from 1845 (after JS's death), where the words of this prophecy appear only as an interlinear insertion which could only have been made after the Mormons actually arrived in Utah. Thus it appears that this "prophecy" is a forgery. See MPM 85-86.

PROPHECY ABOUT STEPHEN A. DOUGLAS: May 18, 1843. HC 5:393-4,398, Chron JS, PJS. Joseph Smith prophesies to Stephen A. Douglas that he will "aspire" to the presidency of the U.S., and that if he ever turns against the Mormons, he will "feel the weight of the hand of Almighty God upon [him]"

FULFILLMENT: Douglas did aspire to the presidency, but did not get it. Mormons claim that it was because he did turn against them. However, this prophecy, like the previous one, appears to be a forgery by the editors of HC. It supposedly is recorded in Wm. Clayton's diary. The manuscript of that diary, however, has no prophecy about Douglas. See MPM 86-88.

MORMONS WILL ESCAPE THEIR ENEMIES: Feb 25, 1844. HC 6:225, Chron JS. Joseph Smith prophesies that within five years the Mormons would be out of the power of their old enemies.

FULFILLMENT: By 1849 the Mormons had set up their theocracy in Utah and, for a time at least, were no longer plagued by their enemies. (By 1857, however, the U.S. was sending an army to Utah to put down the "Mormon Rebellion.")

JACKSON COUNTY WILL BE DEVASTATED: ca. 1839. Unrecorded prophecy, reported in Morris, PJS p 180. Joseph Smith advised General Doniphan not to own property in Jackson County, Missouri, because "God's wrath hangs over Jackson county. God's people have been ruthlessly driven from it, and you will live to see the day when it will be visited by fire and sword. The Lord of Hosts will sweep it with the besom of destruction. The fields and farms and houses will be destroyed, and only the chimneys will be left to mark the desolation."

FULFILLMENT: In 1863 Union troops were ordered to burn all houses and crops in Jackson County because of the anti-Union guerrilla warfare of the residents. It was considered one of the worst atrocities of the war.

PORTER ROCKWELL WILL DIE IN BED: Joseph Smith promised his body guard Porter Rockwell that if he never cut his hair, he would die in bed.

FULFILLMENT: Rockwell complied, and in spite of a violent life, died peacefully. (Harold Schindler, Orrin Porter Rockwell, Salt Lake City 1966, pp 108-109)

A VAIN PROPHET WILL BE THROWN DOWN: This prophecy by Joseph Smith, although it was fulfilled quickly and literally, is rarely cited by Mormons. July 1828. D&C 3:4. "For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him."

FULFILLMENT: On May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith made the following statement in a public sermon (Brodie p 374, HC 6:408-412):

"Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All ####, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."

At this time he was secretly married polygamously to over 40 women, some of them wives of men still living. Many who knew of these secret marriages accused him of changing the doctrine of the church to satisfy his own carnal desires, in violation of the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:23-29, 3:5) and D&C 49:16.

Almost exactly one month after this boast, on June 27, 1844, he was killed by his enemies in a gun battle at Carthage Jail.

Quote[/b] ]4. What do you like about the Mormon church?

Mormons seem to be very zealous about their religion and faithful in carrying it out. I wish more Christians were that way.

Anyway, I need to take care of minor details of my life...

Peter