Survey on Member Religious Preferences

[Odysseus]

Capslock,

Thanks for what you said. I appreciate to know that more than my challengers are reading this thread and perhaps my words are finding other people who may in fact be interested or simply appreciative. You said you were, and that means alot to me. Thanks!

God's Garden,

You are right we STILL haven't built that Temple in Jackson, County. Man oh man I wish we had. But, we had a little problem that you alluded to. In Illinois the Governer Boggs issued an Extermination order to get rid of all Mormons in Illinois. The people in Missouri were no kinder to the Mormons and as you said, "cloud of dust was left behind" when they were forced to leave their homes.

There was serious animosity against the Church and it would mean war in order to "force" our way into Jackson, County to build a temple. Our Temple in Nauvoo was burned down and it cost us today's equivalent in millions to build. We could not financially nor intelligently build up a Temple to the Lord where arsonists could very well burn it down.

The Prophesy hasn't come true in the time alotted. I agree with that. But it wasn't a "false" Prophecy. Some day their will be a Temple. I believe that to be true. Some day their will be. And some day a New Jerusalem will be built. It hasn't yet. But, it will have to built. I just don't know when.

Oh and by the way, what about Oliver Granger? He wasn't an Apostle or anything...he was just asked to take command of the Church affairs of Kirtland a long time ago. If you want read the Doctrine and Covenants and you could read about him, if you're curious. His name is mentioned in D&C 117:12.

Take care, everyone! Good luck with all of your plants!

--Aaron

 

[rubrarubra]

Hey Odysseus,
If a prophesy isn't 100% fulfilled, it is a false prophesy. All biblical prophesies were fulfilled on time. There are prophesies Joseph Smith made that weren't and never will be fulfilled. For example, he predicted that his son would become president (of Israel?). Anyway, his son died before he ever received the position.
Peter

 

[lavenderdawn]

I have also been following this thread & I agree totally with Capslock.  I admire you, Aaron, for how you have stood against these 'questioners.'  Always calm & cool & rational.  Have you noticed the poll continues to get votes?  I honestly am surprised at how many people identify with being atheist.  

By the way, I read in the NY Times today that the governor of Illinois went to Salt Lake City to publicly apologize for the harassment & murder of Joseph Smith.  

 

[wolfpackgurl]

wow! this subject is still going and going and going! Cool!!! Mormons came to my house yesterday and my mom had read the Book of Mormon before and so she was just asking all these questions and talking to them for a long time.

 

[Odysseus]

Thanks Lavender!  That is very kind words.  

 Thank you.  

I want you, Capslock, Rubra, God's Garden, zappa, Mike, and etc. to know that my intentions here has NOT been to convert anyone to my way of thinking or believing.  My purpose began as false statements about my church being made, so I defended our position on them.  With the thousands of CP'ers here I apparently am the only member of my Church, and so it was very important to me that no rumors were spread any further when I could help it.

I did not want to "prove" that I am right.  I certainly don't feel that I have proved anything or that I could.  I just wanted other's to see what I believe and hopefully enjoy them.  Maybe, even open their arms to members of my church in the future, and see them as fellow Christians if possible.  

Best wishes!

--Aaron

<span style='color:red'>WPG, that is interesting! I wish your Mom good luck!

</span>

 

[lavenderdawn]

No problem, Aaron.
Did you get to see the Illinois governor (sorry, I don't remember his name) when he came to town?

 

[fatboy]

I too agree with Capslock and Lavenderdawn, both said exactly what I have been feeling.
To be quite honest my interest in CP's comes and goes (as does the time I have available to devote to them) however I have been coming to the forum just to keep an eye on this thread. It is interesting.

I also agree with your words Aaron

Quote[/b] ]I have heard everyone's opinion on here about my church and I felt that I did a good job dealing with the opposing views and calmly responded and explained the true beliefs of my church.  But, nonetheless, the opinions have not changed.  And I don't want to waste my time if nobody is open minded about my church.

It is very difficult to alter people's beliefs, and I don't necessarily mean to alter them to be the same as your own but even altering them to be more accepting of your own, and much of the time people don't want them altered which makes it that much more difficult.

For those that enjoy debating religion or just browsing to read about other people's opinions there are some fairly high level discussions here:

Theology Online Forums

Cheers, Troy.

 

[lavenderdawn]

Hey, Troy!  I thought you were out chasing down some rare neps or something like that.  Good to *see* you!  

Thanks for that link.  

 

[Odysseus]

Lavender,

I didn't.  My town is a half-hour away from Salt Lake and with traffic between those two it becomes often an hour and half!  So, I don't go very often.  

 But, I think the news that the Governer has issued an official apology is VERY gracious.  He didn't have to do it, but he did and I think that shows that my church is being appreciated as a respected Church and not a terrible "cult" it sometimes is portrayed as.  

I share the emotions many members of my church have, that this is a final closure to such a sorrowful time.  In the conflict we made mistakes, and the government made mistakes and lives were lost.  It was a very sad time, and I am glad to see it come to an official end.  It is now only history, I just hope history doesn't repeat itself.  

Take care, Lavender!  

 

[rubrarubra]

Hi all,
I have found interest in the Mormon beleifs (though I find them sometimes to be too interesting

). I too have not been trying to convert anyone. I started debating when Mormons and JW's were classified as "Christian".

Odysseus, you have not adressed the issue of the trinity in the your last two posts. Does this mean something?

Peter

 

[Mike King]

Nor has Aaron remarked on why the bible in Deutoronomy states 'Hear O Israel, The Lord (Yahweh) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (Yahweh)!

 

[jimscott]

Hi guys! I just spent the past hour or so perusing the posts on this topic - from page 18 --->1. I had no idea there was a good debate going on. I thought it was just a poll.

 

[jimscott]

With regard to the Trinity: Who Raised Jesus From The Dead?
I Thess. I:10 - The Father raised the Son.
John 2:19 - Jesus raised Himself.
Romans 8:11 - The Spirit raised Jesus.
Acts 2:24,32 and Romans 10:9 GOD raised Him from the dead.
Jesus rose once - NOT 3 times!

This is a quote from a website I found: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/7831/trinity.html

 

[zappafan]

Christs birth was of the Holy Spirit -Matthew 1:20
His name translated = "God With us."-Matthew 1:23
So we can see here that the Holy Spirit acted like a father for
He is of the same essence as the Father, and a father is always the one who plants the seed. A father always has to be part of the procreation. And Jesus has another name just as the Father has many in the Old Testament. See the liknesses there ?
So what I see here is three persons in one God.
This is what I see in this passage
Holy Spirit=Father god(Holy Spirit "fathering" Christ)
Jesus = God(His name is translated God) If that was not true God would never have allowed it to be printed.
Jesus has another name(Emmanuel) very similiar to
Father God having many names in the OT.

 

[jimscott]

I like the one where Moses asks the voice from the non-consummable burning bush who was speaking to him. the reply: "I am." And then Jesus told the Jewish leaders that before Abraham was - "I am." That REALLY got them bent out of shape because they understood the Jesus was claiming to be God (not a God or god). Gotta love it!

 

[Odysseus]

Hello,

 I haven't been avoiding the Trinity topic at all.  I have just been avoiding debating my perspective all together.  But, I can answer to your recent posts.  No problem!  I will do my best.  

 Also, it's not that I have been offended or hurt.  Not at all.  I was just putting too much effort in a debate where my opinion wasn't amounting to anything.  So, I've been focusing elsewhere.  

 

Mike said:

Quote[/b] ]Nor has Aaron remarked on why the bible in Deutoronomy states 'Hear O Israel, The Lord (Yahweh) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (Yahweh)!

I believe this is the scripture you were alluding to:

Quote[/b] ]4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:4)

I agree with you, Mike. That Scripture is talking about Jesus Christ, the same of Galilee and born of the Virgin Mary.  I don't dispute anything you said Mike.  Only that the name Elohim and Yahweh do not show up.  

You must remember that I believe Jesus to be:
LORD
GOD
YAHWEH
JEHOVAH
I AM
THE CREATOR
and etc...etc...etc...(He has many names.)

and I believe ELOHIM to be:
GOD the Eternal Father
FATHER of ALL and literal Father of Jehovah - Jesus Christ.


So in agreement to your post, Mike, and posts that followed,  I don't disagree that Jehovah is the great I AM and Jesus of Nazareth was Jehovah.  I COMPLETELY agree!  

 

Only addition to my belief, is that there is another God mentioned in the Bible as a seperate being from Christ. I believe that Christ literally was speaking to His Father in these following versus from the New Testament.

Quote[/b] ]
41  And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42  Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43  And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

(New Testament | Luke 22:41 - 43)

Here was Christ in the Garden of Gethsamene suffering and bleeding from every pore for all of our sins.  In this verse, in my opinion, it is a show of positive difference in "WILL" between Christ and the "Father."  Christ is suffering and in that time of pain, asked if there could be a different way.  But, knowing what MUST be done, He told His Father.  Not MY WILL but THINE His Father loving Him and compassionate sends an Angel to comfort Him during the pain.

I sincerely believe that Christ was not talking to Himself.  But, to a true Father of His.  

On the Cross He spoke again:

Quote[/b] ]33  And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34  ¶ Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.  And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

(New Testament | Luke 23:33 - 34)

46  ¶ And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

(New Testament | Luke 23:46)

 I hope that you will understand my beliefs.  And I hope that all of you have a GREAT Easter and remember the Sacrifice Christ made for us!  Have a great Sabbath!

--Aaron

 

[zappafan]

Aaron, the names Elohim and Yahweh do show up in the Original Hebrew Manuscripts. This is what Mike is talking about. I have the manuscripts in my Hebrew/Greek/English Interlinear Bible. Then when you consult a lexicon such as Strong's Concordance you will see these "names" assigned numbers to make study easy. The reason you see God instead of Elohim and Lord instead of Yahweh is the translators decision when translating into English. Mike do you use these kinds of study tools?

 

[Mike King]

Yes I do Zappafan, I did an excellent Christian teaching course 10 years ago which is non denominational, you get get a look at their website http://www.workshop.org.uk/

I am sending material to Aaron and anyone else who cares to read the teaching about the Trinity, Godhead etc so if you would like a copy please send me an email and I will send you scans..

Aaron, the text from Deuteronomy contains both Yahweh and Elohim. It the Hebrew scriptures, 'Elohim' was like stating the royal 'we'. For example Queen Victoria once stated 'We are not amused' speaking for herself.

 

[Mike King]

You can click on the 'Statements of faith' and you can see the standpoint cited there on the Workshop site

 

[jimscott]

Quote[/b] ]NOLU
I am an atheist not to look cool. I just don't think there are any Gods. You could say I was catholic but only because I had my communion and confirmation but that of course was down to my parents taking me there.

Even at school I was very good at Religious education but as I got older, I soon made up my mind that there was no such thing.

That's just me. I do respect other people's beliefs

NOLU: You sound similar to me - before I became a Christian in college - only I was the Jewish version. I went to a Hebrew school two nights a week for 5 years. I learned how to read, write, and speak Hebrew and had a Bar Mitzvah when I was 13. Read the Old Testament all the way through and learned of Jewish history. Didn't learn anything about faith. Consequently, by the time I was 15, I was a self-described atheist. Even though the truth was staring me in the face and I read it, my spiritual eyes were blind and my spiritual ears were deaf. It's amazing how we can hear and see and yet NOT hear and see.