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Thread: Alternative to bush and kerry!

  1. #73
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Whatever makes you happy.

    No mater how hard we try, we can naver make a place perfect. There will always be people who discriminate against others. Some people love to hate. Males will always strive for dominance. Top of the heap, babie!

    And wars. Battles amoung clans are fought in chimpanzes and gorillas, our closest reletives. There will always be some people just looking for a exuse to fight. War is not ineveteble, but it is a unfortunate tendancy of ours. That and poaching. (poaching in protected areas really makes me mad )

    Many people bloodlust. Its a unfortunate thing. They just like to kill things. Like that group pf boys in town that shoots everything that moves (dead: 3 cows, 15 dogs,18 cats) Look at the buffalo. Back in the time they killed hundreds in days, just because they could. Bloodlust, its not a pretty thing.
    that makes no logic

  2. #74
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    Biggun, you're very selfless, I'll give you that. Kudos! You still failed to answer the question: Should I be punished for working hard while lazy people (NOT people who can't work, I'm talking about true parasites. I've known a few) reap a reward? Makes no sense.....

    Like I said before, I'm all for giving to people who really do need. The sick, diabled or whatever. You're heart is in the right place, true dat. However, there MUST be a system of checks and balances so the there is some motivation to rise above mediocraty.
    17 Nash Rd.
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    YOU! Outta my gene pool!

  3. #75
    SirKristoff is a poopiehead Ozzy's Avatar
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    Has anybody ever notice that GW looks like Curious George?




    Here's a funny little story

  4. #76

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    Biggun, I must agree with Schloaty, you are a very selfless person, but I just see inherent flaws in your theory.



    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] And they understood that in a society -- for it to work -- all must experience limitations on dreams, income and consumption
    I disagree with every part of this statement. If I am to limit my dreams to that of my neighbor, where is my motivation to strive to be better? I have never understood the person that was content with mediocrity. In my position I see it every day. We have guys that work in the field for us that could truly be masters of there field. A VERY select few strive to be better, most are "content". A different person asks me for a raise once a week. Out of 20 of them, only 1 will say "This is why I deserve a raise". Most feel that just because they showed up and did there JOB they deserve something extra. You can bring up the past all you want, but the fact is, today people feel like they deserve something for nothing. I just don't buy into that philosophy. I don't have a darn thing that I didn't work my tail off for. My sweat and blood are in every single thing I own, and it makes me a better person for it.

    Look at about 90% of the low income housing we have in this country. They are in shambles. Not because we didn't try to keep them maintained, but because people don't respect something that was given to them. Have you ever seen a homeowner who works 50 hours week spray paint graffiti on his house?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I see medicine/drugs run amuck by profiteering and a nation that lets people become millionaires off death and sickness.
    I agree with you 100% on this one. I just don't have a good answer. Federal health care is not the answer. Its been proven to not work effectively. People need to start getting active with there reps. When they see that they may not get re-elected if they arenít a part of the solution, things might change.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I see a lack of good low income housing.
    Thats because 90% are torn up from the inhabitants. I live in New Orleans, and I see it every day. We just tore down a 15 year old, 12 million dollar low income housing complex. It was in such dilapidated condition that there was no saving it. You tell me, after blowing 12 million of MY tax dollars to see them tear it to ####, what makes me want to build another? Why should I care, when MOST don't care themselves. Granted, there are some that are good, honest people, but how do you weed them out from the bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I see wealthy whites abandoning public schools.
    How about we rephrase that to "middle class" and I will agree with ya. Whats wrong with wanting to send your child to a better school? Most are sent to catholic, or religious schools. Since God is not allowed in our public schools, a parent should not be looked down upon because they send there child to a school where "God" is allowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I see an over-populated world that wonders why such a tiny part of it (The USA) gets to pig out on most of its resources
    I see a world economy that would go belly up if the US decided to stop using up these "resources"

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]If a hummer is "advertising" then I'm a Repub!
    Obviously it got your attention, seems like it worked to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I do not turn my back on society's needs as a whole by using the justification that I made it all alone so everyone else should too.
    Let me tell you something. We sponsor 6 little league teams. We purchased 2 cars for the local police department. We are the SOLE funder of a local cheerleading squad, provided a library for a local public school, put a 150K roof on the D-day museum for 50K, and many smaller things all last year.

    On top of that, we gave out 38% of last years profits in bonuses. I challenge you to find a company that gives out close to that percentage in bonus structure.

    Yet, by the sounds of things, you would prefer to take that money, and instead put it into gov't programs that have historically NOT WORKED. Look at the welfare system, social security, Medicare. They simply do not work. Big gov't is not the answer. I can handle my money much better than they can. I want to decide who to help and who I feel needs to help themselves. I am sick and tired of seeing my money go to some ingrate that works the system. I am sick and tired of seeing someone pull up to the grocery store in a brand new Cadillac Escalade and buying there groceries with food stamps. I am sick and tired of having to expense funds to defend myself in FRIVILOUS lawsuits because some idiot WANTS SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. I am sick and tired of seeing these "low income housing developments" that you want more of, turning into freaking war-zones and spilling over into honest peoples front yards. I am sick and tired of seeing good Dr's and business owners shut there doors because we can't get any torte reform in this country. It all goes back to the mentality that a select few have of wanting something for nothing. Well, guess what, it doesn't work that way, and it never SHOULD.

  5. #77
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    I think the fact that this discussion can be held in an open forum, without fear of reprisal from some governmental police agency, speaks volumes for the framers of our Constitution. How many other countries have this "FREEDOM OF SPEECH"? [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]

  6. #78

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    Hi,

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Biggun, I must agree with Schloaty, you are a very selfless person, but I just see inherent flaws in your theory.
    I'm not any more selfless than the next guy. Selflessness is not a personal or character issue. It is a belief or social issue. We embrace selflessness because it is good for the whole. We try to reinforce the social need for selflessness with religion and whatnot but the fact remains that humans are prone to knee jerk selfish responses even when the "big picture" tries to tell us that our own selfishness (fear transformed into survival mode) is almost always the problem. I've spent the last 5 years caring for 2 invalid parents; I decision I made. I had to put my career on hold or even kiss good bye to it to make that decision. My parents worked their butts off their whole life. My father suffered kidney failure at 50. He pushed himself to keep on working as a Pepperidge Farm franchise owner another 10 years until the 4am-4pm, 6 days a week in a hot truck was just too much. He sold the business but the buyer bailed in a few weeks and my Dad lost everything as Pepperidge Farm also bailed on him. Do you have any idea how much 25 years of dialysis costs? Trust me, unless you are Bill Gates or have the insurance policy to end all insurance policies no matter how well you plan for the future it will NEVER be enough when facing that kind of health issue. Without disability; without federal health care; without taxes; without policies for the good of society as a whole, he would have died as he could not pay for his care. He lost everything. Savings went. Social security and disability saved him. So these programs that rich, cold, heartless, ignorant Re-pubs are so quick to darn as total failures along with the idea that all government programs fail (except the torturing military, of course, and the need for our own endless supply of ever new, ever more powerful weapons of mass destruction -- I hear Raytheon is always a sure bet, high yield investment and I wonder why?!), these programs -- medicare, social security do WORK and can be the difference between life and death. I hope you can always live in an insular protected moneyed personal world and never have anything happen to you where nature overwhelms your well thought-out survival plans. Life has taught me otherwise. I do not have such a high opinion of my own greatness and worth.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    I disagree with every part of this statement. If I am to limit my dreams to that of my neighbor, where is my motivation to strive to be better?
    Who said anything about limiting your dreams to those of your neighbor? I'd think about why you made that asumption if I were you. I do not see dreams as based on "keeping up with the Jones." I see them as more individual and private. Now if by dreams you just mean having more stuff than Joe next door, well, that is a false dream and not worth talking about. That's just a greed fantasy and not a dream. Americans have a hard time telling the difference betwen fantasies and dreams. We now live in a country controlled by fantasy and we have long since forgotten how to dream. "I had a dream......"

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    I have never understood the person that was content with mediocrity.
    Why would you consider being satisfied with what you have the same as being satisfied with mediocrity? What is mediocrity to you -- driving a nice Campri instead of striving for a Hummer? I consider such a "mediocre" desire a form of wisdom and maturity. I think your own personal need to prove yourself successful in this society by amasing wealth is skewing your ability to understand all people. Many people do no wish to amass wealth. They simply wish to live and a healthy society should not require everyone to feed on ambition and greed all day long to achieve happiness and a life. It may work for who you are, but not for who your friend is, and that does not make him or her less (i.e. mediocre) than you; it just makes them less ambitious and greedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    In my position I see it every day. We have guys that work in the field for us that could truly be masters of there field. A VERY select few strive to be better, most are "content".
    As an employer I'd think you'd want some "content" workers because everyone cannot be a manager or owner. There is value in that contentment that I hope you see one day. Contentment can become loyality and loyality is as valuable as ambition -- in the long run. You are not "content"; others are -- the world needs both. That's why we are all different and all in this together.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    A different person asks me for a raise once a week. Out of 20 of them, only 1 will say "This is why I deserve a raise". Most feel that just because they showed up and did there JOB they deserve something extra.

    Maybe they feel their job, as is, is part of why the profits increase and that without taking on more duties deserve a raise for the contribution their job is obviously already making? Also, contentment is a value and factors into a raise.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    You can bring up the past all you want,

    Who needs to bring it up -- the past is always present.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    but the fact is, today people feel like they deserve something for nothing. I just don't buy into that philosophy.

    I couldn't agree more but we place the blame for that problem on different shoulders. You think it was caused by liberal gov't programs coming from the 60's. I believe it was caused by a business-dominated culture that preaches "greed is good" and "consume all you can, you deserve it!" When Reagan's America told us that being greedy selfish uncaring me me me pigs was not only "ok" but a high moral order, America went down the tubes. A country where only the economy is taken as serious news and only money talks is a country beginning to decay. We lost our way in the 80's and have never found our way back home. For a rich, smart, strong nation, we act and think like needy selfish peasants. It is both embarrassing and shameful.
    This old liberal believes in public service. (I teach school so I can care for my now remaining invalid parent.) I would require mandatory 2 year public service from ALL high school graduates -- no exceptions. This could be military service, Peace Corp, community, conservation, education, health care, senior care, welfare, etc. This would be a 24/7 duty for 2 years. Now, the first 2 years of college would be paid for as a benefit. I would require prisoners to be society's maids. I would build youth camps to send youth offenders to and have the military run them. I would provide federal jobs as a foundation of welfare -- no work no money. I would end all private and religious schools and make everyone attend public schools as a way of both socializing a democratic country and as a way of keping the most powerful parental voices focused on the quality of public education. I hate the death penalty, but since we use it as a deterant, then I would apply it to tax fraud and CEO's who ruin companies to enrich themselves. That should clear up alot of tax and financial cheating. I am not an easy liberal at all. I believe you work for the good of all and if the whole helps you, you MUST give back however you can. Rich people would be the first and loudest voices darning the above ideas as they would not see waht they have to gain -- they can pay their way. AND THAT IS THE CORE OF OUR SOMETHING FOR NOTHING WORLD TODAY. It's a problem created by mass marketing and production and not gov't programs. You are buying the propaganda of those few who decry our morals and use those crocidile tears to soak up the money!

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    I don't have a darn thing that I didn't work my tail off for. My sweat and blood are in every single thing I own, and it makes me a better person for it.
    Kinder? And have you analyzed all the ways in which society as a whole worked its tail off for you? It did. Most people never stop to see that or possess the humility to admit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Look at about 90% of the low income housing we have in this country. They are in shambles. Not because we didn't try to keep them maintained, but because people don't respect something that was given to them. Have you ever seen a homeowner who works 50 hours week spray paint graffiti on his house?
    I wasn't talking about "projects"; I meant simple affordable individual homes that are not 80 miles from the town! You know, simple 3 bedroom, 2 baths, 1 car garage ranch homes for truly middle class people to buy as they did in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Plus, were are the simple cars? I know, let the rich have big houses on 3 lots as they alone earned it! I say let everyone live a bit more modestly but all live well and own. Again, here is where the "winner take all" lack of morality -- that even Christians of all people -- preach today shows its destructive force on the Americna character and nation. Greed is always and forever bad bad bad bad.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    I agree with you 100% on this one. I just don't have a good answer. Federal health care is not the answer. Its been proven to not work effectively. People need to start getting active with there reps. When they see that they may not get re-elected if they arenít a part of the solution, things might change.
    Yes, throw the Re-pubs back to the private sector they all confuse with god gov't (Enron good gov't? hahahahahaahah). I never know why Re-pubs want to be in gov't. They all say private enterprise is where it is at and that gov't by its nature is evil, evil, evil. Why are they there? Sound like hypocrits to me. I never understand why Christians are Re-pubs as Christ and the tenets of Christianity make a Liberal Democrat look like a Nazi!!!!!!!!!!!!! No philosophy is more innately socially liberal and caring for your fellow human bings over yourself than Christianity. I don't think one can be a true Christian and be a Republican.


    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    How about we rephrase that to "middle class" and I will agree with ya. Whats wrong with wanting to send your child to a better school? Most are sent to catholic, or religious schools. Since God is not allowed in our public schools, a parent should not be looked down upon because they send there child to a school where "God" is allowed.
    I believe the core problem with our education system is two fold. 1) It is a racial issue and everyone tries to pretend otherwise and 2) We had great teachers for cheap when women had few job opportunities before the 1970's; now we must pay and refuse to do so. This country has no respect for education -- only for what it might buy. We hate the means but crave the ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    I see a world economy that would go belly up if the US decided to stop using up these "resources"
    Who said stop? I mean share!



    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Let me tell you something. We sponsor 6 little league teams. We purchased 2 cars for the local police department. We are the SOLE funder of a local cheerleading squad, provided a library for a local public school, put a 150K roof on the D-day museum for 50K, and many smaller things all last year.
    I think its great that you do all these things but they are all good advertising for your company and they are all good examples for building a great public image. You are supporting the "cream" of social needs that your customers approve of and that lead to business deals. You are not solving society's ills or facing its greatest challenges. You don't have to; gov't does. That's the point you miss.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    On top of that, we gave out 38% of last years profits in bonuses. I challenge you to find a company that gives out close to that percentage in bonus structure.
    For that you should be very proud.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    Yet, by the sounds of things, you would prefer to take that money, and instead put it into gov't programs that have historically NOT WORKED. Look at the welfare system, social security, Medicare. They simply do not work. Big gov't is not the answer. I can handle my money much better than they can. I want to decide who to help and who I feel needs to help themselves. I am sick and tired of seeing my money go to some ingrate that works the system. I am sick and tired of seeing someone pull up to the grocery store in a brand new Cadillac Escalade and buying there groceries with food stamps. I am sick and tired of having to expense funds to defend myself in FRIVILOUS lawsuits because some idiot WANTS SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. I am sick and tired of seeing these "low income housing developments" that you want more of, turning into freaking war-zones and spilling over into honest peoples front yards. I am sick and tired of seeing good Dr's and business owners shut there doors because we can't get any torte reform in this country. It all goes back to the mentality that a select few have of wanting something for nothing. Well, guess what, it doesn't work that way, and it never SHOULD.
    Ever wonder why the powers that be leave the problems as they are? Ever wonder how it might be serving their interests? Now there is a BIG BIG BIG question.

    Bobby

  7. #79
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    Jez, what am i in this discusion, shopped liver !!??!
    that makes no logic

  8. #80
    Frakkin Toaster Cynic81's Avatar
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    Great Debate! It's refreahing to see a Liberal and Conservative discuss political and ideologival issues without killing each other. I hope you two can continue this [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/img]
    The Best Part About Being a Sociopath is Never Having to Say You're Sorry.

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