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Should marijuana be legalized/decriminalized

  • #21
Copper,

You have sure been through it, and I can respect your opinions. There will always be users and abusers, those with good sense and those with no sense. I raised my own child to be independent of drugs of all sorts, based on the threat of legal punishment, and also the expense. What starts out as fun can become a habit: this is the way of vice in general.
There are many vices. Gambling is illegal in most instances, but the State lottery is fine. Alcohol is the WORST drug, demonstrated to have an addictive effect on those who carry the "alcoholic" gene, but lobby groups keep it legal. My point is, you cannot legislate these issues with success. There will always be bad men. The law cannot protect us from them, it can only punish instances of abuse - but to go from the specific case to the general is not fair! I am not that man. I know of no one who is. Even if the use of the substance is as deleterious as your list suggests (forgive me, but I remain dubious, as I have said unless I am Superman I would be dead after 35 years of use don't you think?) the law has NO right to save me from myself! If I am abusive to others, that is a crime in and of itself - there is no need to bring substance use into the equation. Beating children is wrong even if the person is stone cold sober, and should be punished. Sitting in a field listening to music and smoking some pot is not, and it should not be a punishable offence. Prohibition is not effective, and never has been. All this does is to empower the negative elements, while constraining the good. In Denmark, there are districts where the use is condoned. Outside this area, the use is not permitted and infractions bring fines. Personal use is allowed in the home, and a reasonable quantity (defined by law) may be taken from the bistro district. Possession of anything over that amount is punishable by fines. Selling without permits is in all cases illegal. Even in the condoned area, smokers must go outside now to indulge, since exposure to the environment can result in positive results in a urine test, even if the person has not directly smoked. This is reasonable. In the same district, prostitution is licensed much as the establishments selling marijuana. Working girls are certified as healthy and licensed. Selling it without a license is an offense. In the same district, heroin addicts may obtain clean needles, and drop off their used ones. A van pulls up, is opened and the drivers leave. Right there with the needles may be found contact information about rehabilitation and recovery, social assists to overcome the addiction. As a result, they have the lowest incidence of HIV in the world. Users and addicts are *not* treated as crimminals! These methods were adopted because their society recognizes that victimless crimes are going to continue, with or without this rational approach. People have always gotten high, sought sex thrills, and they always will. This is an issue of morality: a field that law should steer well clear of. Morality cannot be demanded of someone unwilling to accept those dictates.

As to my own use, I could be busted right now if someone wants to come and get me. I've been there before. It's a risk I take, and I prefer this and the paranoia that accompanies it over feeling that Big Brother has me under his thumb, even if it is for my own good. I don't sell it, I don't buy it, I don't push it, I don't flaunt it and I respect those who want no part of it. That too is part of freedom and respect. What I want to see is the same respect shown to me by my Uncle Sammy. As long as I hurt no one, it's nobody's beeswax what I do, or don't do!

Oh, rest easy. It will never be legal, but that is not because it is a harmful thing to society in and of itself, I do not accept that; it is because special interests lobby against it's legalization. What I would like to see is a decrimminilization, limited private use as in Denmark. I want to grow and appreciate this wonderful plant without fear, and share it with those who feel the same in an appropriate time and place.

One thing is for sure, the only way society can stop me from being free is to imprison me, beat me, and otherwise constrain my freedom and perogatives. So tell me, am I the victim or the crime? I am a good man, and good men do not become abusive animals because of what they take into their bodies. Such abuse comes from another quarter entirely, and is best summed up as a deficit in love, and not of necessity a drug reaction.

Thanks for your rebuttal Copper, and never fear, you will never see me passing the joint your way, LOL. I have eyes in back of my head, but if you want me, come and get me. I'll go quietly, pay my fine, do my time, and then will continue to be a good free man. Nothing short of the grave will take that away from me.
 
  • #22
Copper, we view the law differently. i dont beat my fiancees children cause its against the law, i dont do it cause common human decency says not to. a swat on the rear and send them to there room is all it usually takes to get their attention. i think the law should keep the "powerful" from taking advantage of the "weak" and thats about it. i believe in sevier punishment for violent crimes and for stuff like the enron BS. however i see no problem when some Joe Shmoe like me who has worked 50 hours a week at their job wants to smoke a joint to relax on a friday night while watching TV.

i also realize that legalizing it may or may not make a pill form of the drug cheaper, however i know enough about chemestry and herbal medicines that if it was legal i could very well grow it myself and extract the basic chemicals out in one form or another. THC isnt that hard to get out of the plant.

i am for the most part a law abiding citizen, i streach the law here and there but nothing major, i pay my taxes i work for a living and have nothing to do with wellfare or any of that stuff because between work, hunting and fishing i can keep meat on the table year round even if i do become a lil short on $, besides someone prolly needs it worse than me. i dont beat my girlfriend or her kids, alcohol doesnt make me violent besides i dont drink very often anyways. the only time im even remotly close to being violent is when someone thinks they are going to mess with my family, other than that im pretty a pretty mellow guy. if I want to smoke a joint to relieve some stress and the pain in my knees why shouldnt i be able to? im not hurting anyone except maybe my lungs. narcotics only work if i take enough to knock me loopy. marjuana seems to have a risidual effect that helps me out for a few days. i dont know if its actually killing the pain, reducing some of the swelling, a combination of both or niether but for some dang reason it works even after the "high" has worn off. just mt 2 cents
 
  • #23
Starman and Tree Terror, you have the right of it. I don't want you to think I am encouraging you, I am not! My own son has never drunk alcohol or taken any non-prescription drug, and he has saved himself a pile of money, and is probably healthier for it. He listened to what I had to say about it, and I hope you will as well.

The issue is one of freedom, not health. My advice is to stay away from all the vices, none are good for you. There is a difference between good advice and Law though, and that is my point. Any addiction, even to something as harmless as comic books or TV is not good. Addicts seek to ease their addiction, but it rarely works. You can ease it with a "fix" but it always returns like a monkey on your back, then you need a little more and you pay a little more. For those who have no strong will (and they are many) it can lead to some deep strange waters, and much sorrow.

With substance use, the illegality of it makes sure that the drugs will be expensive. Unless one has a good strong will (and few addicts have that quality) an addiction will eat up the money that could go to enriching other parts of your life. Addictions are expensive things, and not just in terms of health. The thrill wanes, but the addiction remains.

What starts off as fun and a thrill, can become a compulsion.
It can lead to real crime: theft, lying, cheating because the addiction can become more important than anything in the world. The worse the addiction, the more chances that this will happen.

This isn't limited to drug use. Gambling, food, sex: all can become addictive and can lead to destructive acts and behavior.

So, my advice to you is to be moderate, always. Keep a close reign on these things if and when you do experiment, and always remember addiction and vice are two edged swords, and one best not taken up at all if you don't want to be cut.

Just like I told my son, "do as I say, not as I do". You aren't me. I wish I could go back and do it differently, I would! I smoke cigarettes and THAT was the worst mistake of my life. I do not get drunk, I don't like the loss of control. Tobacco, alcohol and cocaine are the worst drugs out there: demons that can consume you, as they have so many others. So just say "no thanks" and enjoy your youth, strong bodies, and freedom from the control that addiction brings. You won't be missing anything. Make good choices now, and it will work for you in the long run.
 
  • #24
i think its a dangerous substance, however, so are nicotine and alcohaul. i think it should be legalized, but it should have age limits like tobacco and alcohaul.

i've used it, and its amazing. i've only used it once and i'm going to use it agian. IMO, theres nothing wrong with using it as long as you'r responsible. do i do other drugs? no. am i going to do other drugs? no. i dont think it's a gateway drug at all, i think nicotine is the gateway drug for people who ARE going to use drugs. i smoke, and when i first started i definately got high, i could barely walk! but now the high is only 1/100 as intense and doesn't last so long. Not all people who smoke weed are bad people, i drink ocassionally does that make me a bad person? alcohaul is alot more dangerous that delta-9 THC.



these are just my opinions.
 
  • #25
i wouldnt take it anyway even though it could be helpfull  
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although hmmmmm
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  • #26
Two wrongs do not make a right. Alcohol is bad and our use of it is not controlled. We have a limit on the amount that is allowed only for driving. It is not controlled and never will be. Cigarettes are bad and our becoming somewhat controlled, but not enough. There are people who do not want that smoke (and it will be immediately harmful), but everyone is free. Second hand smoke from marijuana is worse in all regards.

I will not argue this because it will become heated and ugly. You see it from your side, I see it from mine. You can not convience me that this is not another abusive substance. I know better. Not only from my own life, but from the lives of many others. Your freedom is not harmed. We will see this differently. To me, if your reasoning is beyond medicinal then it is selfish. I feel this way because I here the me and mine. The laws can not be made differently for each and every man, but must be for the group. Not everyone will use something that is dangerous for them in a responsible manner. I see the abuse caused by abusive substances at least once a working day, usaully far more. Alcohol is legal. Cigarettes are legal. They are bad. They are wrong. I can not except the argument that these wrongs are legal so let's make another one legal.

Medicinal - actually if you get a doctors say so there are federal permits to grow. I knew a man that had one.

The argument that people are abusing prescription drugs so make marijuana legal because they abuse drugs anyway is truly a bad argument and enhances my point.

I will not answer again because this is a subject truly close to my heart. I assist in the war waged against drugs and I will not back down. I am not after Tamlin or others like him that sit quietly in the homes and cause no problems, but those are not the people I deal with. If marijuana is legal what is the next to be made so because people should have the freedom to use, meth? Not everyone that uses it hurts someone else.

I get to clean up after a man beats his family to death. I get to clean up the body after the overdose. I get to clean up when the man freaks after repeated and repeated use and murders a perfect stranger. I get to clean up after the friendly card game that goes bad and the knives come out. Fortunately I sometimes get the dealers before they shoot their target. You see you will never convience me and I will never convience you. It is best that I back off now before feelings are hurt. In this subject we will be strongly apposed.
 
  • #27
there's no doubt it's bad, and that's why it's illegal. i dont think anyone SHOULD do it, but i believe that they have the right to. it's NEVER ok to abuse ANYTHING! i think it should be legal and controlled, and i think there should be severe penalties for abusing it.

Dont forget about other legal drugs like Salvia Divinorum, those give you a serious trip and you can buy the plants and extract legally, so should that be controlled aswell? i believe so.

edit:- when i say "controlled" i mean there should be regulations such as age limits and penalties for abuse.
 
  • #28
JLAP, you should look into how marijuana actually became illegal. its rather interesting. what it boils down to is a guy with influence had alot of money in to logging and paper mills. a way to make paper cheap from hemp was discovered and the guy who had his money in lumber decided to use the effects of THC to make it illegal. the effects were greatly exaggerated and he frightened the general public. im not saying the thinking was necessarily wrong in making it illegal(this was around the time of Prohibition) but the reason it was put on the list with opiates was because a guy with power had ALOT of money in lumber. when it was made illegal almost no one in the US realized you could get high by smoking it.

Rattler
 
  • #29
I know, it's selfishness. People can be ignorant, but luckily NORML is trying to make it legal.

i think smoking it ONCE in awhile is perfectly fine, say a couple times per month, but smoking it everyday just makes you a stupid stoner.
 
  • #30
Copper,

I am backing off this topic as well, since I have said all there is to say. I know you to be a good Cop, and you are sworn to uphold the law. This wasn't about convincing you or another generation that drugs are okey dokey. You see another side of reality by having to deal with the bad element, and the dark side of the issue. I imagine that I might see things differently if I was dealing exclusively with the horrible things you have mentioned are routine in your difficult profession. On the other hand, you have never seen responsible use of mairjuana. It's not a question of is this a good or bad thing, but rather a question of does the government have the right to control the actions of the many because of the abuses of the few. I have never seen the horrbile encounters you have experienced, not ever, so I suppose it is easy for me to say they dont exist. I think what we need here is a compromise, and I hope in time it comes to pass. I don't LIKE being a crimminal but I like being controlled even less. I consider the use both ceremonial and uplifting, but others consider profit motives. Control is needed, education is needed but above all a change in the Law is needed that will permit and promote personal liberty for non-abusive users. Thanks for a look at the other side of the coin my friend, I know it must have been hard to show your soul on that. All I can do is ask you to go lightly on those who aren't causing the hurt and harm in our society, and if I know you, you probably do that already. I used to say I never met a Cop I liked (cops and robbers, you know) but since "meeting" you that has gone out the window. Take care.
 
  • #31
I am likely to kick myself later for replying to this but

I agree with copper.

Not because its what the law tells me to say it but because of what i have seen.( dont ask me to elaborate)

... ok my minds drawing a blank

...

...

oh, ya

I disagree with the arguments for making it legal
if im not NORML for thinking thid fine, i have never been normal

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]to is a guy with influence had alot of money in to logging and paper mills. a way to make paper cheap from hemp was discovered and the guy who had his money in lumber decided to use the effects of THC to make it illegal

my only response is- where did you hear that?

And as for making alchohaul illegal, thee feds tried that in that past, and it didnt work. "rumrunners', as they were called just, smuggled alcohal in.

Now ....

altough im surprised bu the number of you who do it, it does not make me think any less of you
 
  • #32
imo, rumrunners are no different than drug dealers.

i had no idea that Rose was a cop, i probably wouldn't have posted anything if i knew that...
 
  • #33
Finch ive run across it several places, books, a couple magazine articles and even a show on the history channel.

Rattler
 
  • #34
Copper, I truely love a dark beer. I would love to try some of yours. I unfortunately cannot find my favorite anymore (Murphy's Irish), Guiness is a favorite as well.

I no longer care for pot. I smoke maybe 1-2 times a year and always regret afterward. It just makes me sleepy and hungry now. The fun is gone!

Tamlin, unfortunately many things are different than the friendly sharing environment of pot smoking that you probably knew. I used to deal a few things among them pot. It has become very competitive and violent. People get killed over pot deals and if they are lucky they get away with hospitalization sometimes. It is a double edged sword.

Joe
 
  • #35
I'm really not sure what side of this issue I'm on right now. I have never used it, so I can not speak from that department. I have to say that on the whole, I agree with the course of action and moral arguments of tamlin. However, I completely agree with all of coppers arguments, but not completely with the ideas as far as its legality. Like I said, I've never used it, or been in contact with anyone who has used it, for good or bad. So I can't declare any personal benifits/detriments on its use. It hasn't really affected my life at all. However, I can speak on the issues concerning the morals and rights of its use.
  As copper said, I don't think that it is right to abuse any drug, as it leads to horrible, situations, either violent or devastating in some other way. But if used in a controlled way, and in moderation, it could lead to major benefits, as stated, as a cash crop, among other things. Tamlin's example of denmark was wonderful, and something like it could be adapted here, but slightly more restricted and controlled. Medical, prescription use would be permited by all. I didn't know that, with a permit, you could use/prescribe it here! I think that people have the right to use it, but with restrictions dictating its use. Restrictions such as age, location, amount, etc. Maybe somehow keep a list of users, such as having the people who wanted to use it legally have to register for it, and obtain it only from a few locations. Just an idea. Prices might go down slightly, but as stated, most medications, even if cheap to produce, remain high in price because of supply and demand. They can charge it, so they do. So there's one benefit down.
  Also, tamlin said that maybe there would be less users because of legality. This probably wouldn't be true. Sure, maybe a few people would stop, but most would keep right on going. You might lose some drug dealers, losing bussiness to a legal source, but other than that, not much. The number would probably increase, with the option open now to people who wanted to try, but avoided it for the legal reasons. Another benefit down the drain.
  Even with the problems marijuana's legalization might cause, I think it would be a good idea. My logic is this- The drug isn't physically adicting. People say that if it's mentally addicting, it's just as bad, but it isn't. There are so many less problems if it isn't a drug the body becomes dependant on. IF it was legalized, people who used it in the past would generally turn to the legal method of obtaining it, the obvious choice. This could help to cut down on its abuse, allowing people to keep using it for either medical reasons or for pleasure, bu would limit its use so that there would be less problems, violence and other. It would make it available to a number o people who would enjoy it or be helped by it, as well as helping to slightly cut down on its abuse (not use). It woudn't solve the problems related to drug abuse, or addictions in any form, but people have the right, in general, to choose what they can or cannot do, provided that it doesn't harm others. If it was legalized, it could provide this right in another form, an probably wouldn't cause any more problems. At worst, the gov't get's a new cash crop, it's more widely available for medical reasons, some users are limited to smaller amount of it, and more people use it. I think that if it was accompanied  by the appropriate fines and regulations, then nothing would get worse, it would either stay the same, albeit with less arrests, fear, and loss of liberties, or slightly slow down the drugs use, by providing while limiting.
   So I see both sides. It's bad for you, it should be stopped, but it can't be, and it has many benefits. So make it legal. limit its use, and it can't get worse.

(just my 2 cents)
Craig
 
  • #36
i couldn't agree more, craig.
 
  • #37
I do think that any drug problem is the user/abuser's problem. Not the drugs, societies, and most of all I DO NOT beleive in drug and alcohol abuse as a disease. It is a choice that each individual makes.

However it is unfortunate that people like Copper will not likely ever see the responsible folks enjoying it in the same manner that she may enjoy a cold, on a responsible level.
On the flip side it is good thing that the morbid side of drug addiction and its addicts will hopefully never been seen by Tamlin or the rest of the peacefull community.

Joe
 
  • #38
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I make no bones about it
Tamlin, PLEASE tell me you meant to do that.....
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Ok, I didn't read the whole thread (started going cross eyed), so some of these points may have been addressed.

My personal feeling is that it should be decriminalized.  Why?  Well, I am a staunch believe in Millian philosophy (as in John Stuart Mill).  As long as what I do has no impact on you, you have NO RIGHT to tell me not to do it.  Period.  Likewise, I should not be punished for the actions of another.  The function of the law is NOT to save us from ourselves.  
On the health issues:  My choice.  If I want to damage my body, not your business.  Period.  Corollary:  I DO NOT have the right to smoke it in front of you if you don't want the health issues associated with second hand smoke.
On bad behavior some people exhibit:  Did I exhibit this behavior?  No.  I hate going back to the alcohol argument, but there is no question that it can make some people short tempered and violent.  I have NEVER  in my LIFE seen a stoned person go after someone.  They're too busy giggling.  Corollary:  If you’re caught behind the wheel of a car stoned, you should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  You are endangering others.   Period.

I know many people have had bad experiences with drugs, and therefore are staunchly against legalization.  However I was not a part of those bad experiences, nor will I be.  Some people used to drink Robitussin to get wacked (yes, the cough syrup, and I don't know if they still do), but that stuff is still available even to minors as over the counter.  

My feeling, in conclusion, is that in and of itself, weed should be legal.  Any actions taken by stoned persons (or sober, for that matter), which would otherwise be illegal should be punished.  

As for my personal experience (for without it, what weight would my words have?), I used to use it.  I stopped because I wanted to be healthier, and I wanted to set a good example of a healthy lifestyle for the baby we were (at the time) starting to think about having.  It's been a while, and I can honestly say I do miss it.  If nothing else, it was certainly psychologically therapeutic.  However, at this stage in my life it is not the right choice.  Perhaps later in my life, when things are different (kid(s?) are gone), I will re-evaluate my personal avoidance.  Or maybe I'll run for president instead....Then I'll have to come clean anyway!

Now, how much control should there be of the stuff?  Well, first of all it should have an age restriction (say 21 for the sake of it).  I remember being a teen, and most of my friends had the maturity to make the right decision, but I hung out with a certain crowd.  Your prevailing high school student did not have the sense of self to say no if pressured.  But as an informed adult, I believe I have the right to take this decision into my own hands.
 
  • #39
I'm with Tamlin and Schloaty on this one. Philosophically, I cannot understand the need to control and regulate behavior that has no victim. I live in the city of San Francisco where the homeless problem is out of control. Virtually all of them are drunks or on the crack. I don't know of any of them who are pot smokers. It's just not in the nature of the drug.

If you go to a Grateful Dead concert, you'll see this in effect. There is a LOT of pot going around, and yet the crowd is as peaceful as can be, to the point of being irritatingly nice, sometimes. However, when I go see the Giants or the A's play, I invariably see fights and arguements in the stands. The reason? Alchohol. I'd sooner take a young child to the Dead show than a baseball game if I want to show him/her role models for behavior.

But the undiscussed element here is the enormous social costs of criminalizing marijuana. People's lives are ruined every day, not by smoking pot, but by being arrested for it. They lose jobs, homes, and families. And for the rest of us, there's the ridiculous public costs associated with arresting, holding, prosecuting, sometimes defending, judging, and incarcerating pot smokers. That money could go to things like health care and education. But instead it goes to the ever-increasing prison industry. Is that the sort of country we want? One that imprisons before it educates?

I don't doubt that Copper, who I have total respect for, sees people at their worst, and often sees marijuana there. But I'd submit that nobody beats their wife because of pot. Again, it's just not in the nature of the drug. Alcohol is a far, far more likely culprit in causing violence. Also, pot is a drug, just like alcohol and cigarettes, and TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE for kids. DON'T DO DRUGS and STAY IN SCHOOL!!!! When you're 18, then you can make whatever silly decisions you want, but until then, do the right thing!

Prohibition doesn't work, the social costs are too high, the economic costs are too high, and it diverts attention and effort from truly important things. My preference is total legalization. Prohibit use by minors, and tax all commerce, but otherwise, just make it legal.

Capslock
 
  • #40
I am with Copper on this one.

I don't have the time to go into it but I will say this: to everyone that would try and use the argument that Copper's story is the outlier in the bell curve of life and so should not be used as a basis of decision please pay heed. You can not judge what is and is not relevant to someone else making their own decision and you can not say something is an exception till you have been there yourself. When you live through #### and everything is pain but you survive and make it through to hear someone belittle your experience by saying it is the exception to the rule is a crippling blow. The biggest and worst fight I ever got in in my life was when someone told me that my life experiences were not important and were foolish to build my opinions on because they were the exception to the normal. I have never been so hurt in all my life.

I am not going to stop anyone from doing what ever it is they are going to do but I will be darned if they in turn think they have the right to condem me for having a different opinoin and stop me from expressing that opinoin.
 
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