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Presidental candidates

  • Thread starter Copper
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  • #41
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Capslock @ July 12 2004,10:45)]On questions where there aren't mountains of evidence like the origin of the universe, they shouldn't advance ANY particular notions until such evidence is apparent.

Capslock
Caps
I realize it's been a few years since I've been in school, but last time I checked the teaching of evolution was fronted with theorys of the big bang, or what ever else was popular at the time. I assume( yes I know what I'M doing) that this is still the format. So in your own words why toss in the big bang theory, or any theory that can't be proven? But school systems propose different theorys.

Schloaty,
Firstly I am an old earth creationist. Secondly The teaching of creation is unconstitutional? Hmmmmmm.... Let see if you know what document this is from "We hold the truths to be self evident that all men are CREATED equal" What I'm upset about is MY federal money goes to brainwash the young by neo nazi liberalist.
Samuel Thompson wrote: "I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not
going
to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December."

I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when
my high
school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered
because
someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game.

So what's the big deal ? It's not like somebody is up there reading
the
entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and
asking
him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home
from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue.

Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on
Christian principles

would you expect-somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a
Jewish Prayer
If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.
If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear
someone pray to Buddha.
And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...
"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them?
Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the
collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring
a Walkman or a pair of earplugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand.
Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what
they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going
to shake the world's foundations.
Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us
just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us.
The silent majority has been silent too long ... it's time we let one or two who scream loud enough to be heard know, that the vast majority
don't care what they want...it is time the majority rules!
It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray, you don't have the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend
services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right . but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away .we are fighting back...and we
WILL WIN! After all, the God you have the right to denounce is on our side!

God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him...

God bless America, despite all her faults. still the greatest nation of all...

God bless our servicemen who are fighting to protect our right to pray
and
worship God...

May 2004 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back
as the
foundation of our families and institutions.

Keep looking up...
In God WE Trust.
 
  • #42
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Firstly I am an old earth creationist. Secondly The teaching of creation is unconstitutional? Hmmmmmm.... Let see if you know what document this is from "We hold the truths to be self evident that all men are CREATED equal"

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Now, that has been translated to say that the Gov't can not spend tax payers dollars to promote religion. Creationist teachings are RELIGOUS. So people have a darn good right to be mad that evolution (A theory that actually has some facts to back it up, versus a book written by a group of men and edited by pagan kings) is banned while creationism is taught.

Personally, I agree with the seperation of church and state, BUT I disagree with the attention it has been given. We have much bigger things to worry about than getting "in god we trust" removed from the pledge. Whats next? Spending billions of dollars to change all of our current currency? Take it all with a grain of salt and move on.
(On a side note, would you be so complaciant if it was "In Allah we trust"?)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]May 2004 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions.

Food for thought, more people have been killed in the name of "god" than all other wars combined.

You know, I recall from my history books there was a time when the vast majority of the world put all there trust in God. A time when all things done where done for a "Holy" cause. When the leaders of the Church actually ruled the majority of the world. Those times where called the Dark ages, and from what I read it didn't turn out to well.

Great thing about this country is, we can actually have this conversation and be on opposite sides of the fence. My point is a simple one. You believe what you want, and that is great with me. But you keep your beliefes away from my tax dollars and away from my children when the are being taught by public schools.

I actually have a deep desire for my child to actually make up her own mind about religion. I refuse to influence her choice by force feeding catholocism or any other religion to her. I would appreciate it if you and your family would do the same. That way when she is old enough to make her choice she would be making it on HER thoughts, not yours.
 
  • #43
The day somebody's conception of "God" is made the foundation of our families and institutions is the day armed revolution begins. Our forefathers faught and died in order to make a country free from religious persecution. We can do it again, if necessary.

Over and over, the Supreme Court, even when packed with conservative ideologues, has wisely ruled that the government cannot give sanction to any religion, that prayer IS allowed in schools like it always has been, but not as part of the official cirriculum, and that people are free to make religious choices for themselves. This is totally at odds with "making God the foundation of our institutions and families", which is frankly a notion more suited to the theocracies worldwide, and we all see how well they're doing...

Capslock
 
  • #44
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The day somebody's conception of "God" is made the foundation of our families and institutions is the day armed revolution begins. Our forefathers faught and died in order to make a country free from religious persecution. We can do it again, if necessary.

Hoorah to that brother.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] that prayer IS allowed in schools like it always has been, but not as part of the official cirriculum

What gets me is the zealots always say "Why can't you just be silent while we say our prayers". One of the points always taught to me in Catholic shcool (Yup, you read that right) was that one did not have to be "vocal" to speak to god. So if you can pray silently and its JUST as good as praying vocally, wouldn't it be easier for the religous group to pray silently? (sorry bout the run-on)
 
  • #45
Capslock. Kerry may not take away my "gun" BUT Kerry tried to do away with all "armor piercing ammo" as in the ammo that will penetrate a policemans kevlar vest. sounds good in theory right? well every smart cop KNOWS that 30-30 hunting ammo designed specifically to kill deer quickly and humainly will penetrate a kevlar vest. thats a crtridgre thats 110 years old. fastforward to the 20's when my 270 winchester was developed. that "high performance" cartridge will zip right through a kevlar vest with hunting ammo. remember this stuff is exposed lead expanding hunting ammo designed for critters 150-250 pounds on the hoof, not cape buffalo and elephants. jack up the performance level a WHOLE LOT to the 257 STW(stands for Shooting Times Westerner) this cartridge with Barnes Triple Shock hunting bullets will penitrate 1 inch thick armor plate at 100 yards. thats something the 308(7.62 NATO) cant do with full metal jacket ammo. THANKFULLY this bill was killed off very quickly but Kerry was a strong supporter of it. had it passed it would have killed off hunting with firearms. it would have made buying bullets for the guns you have illegal. wouldnt that be about the same as taking away your gun?

Rattler
 
  • #46
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ July 12 2004,10:38)]You must be mitaken. Sientists already KNOW how this world was created. The discovery of protoplanets in other solarsystems provides a snapshot on how the planet-forming process began.
Could you then kind sir be cordual enough to explain to me what "they" know for a fact. It would seem I'm uninformed.
 
  • #47
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ July 12 2004,12:41)]the deal with whoopie, well, that's her opinion and i completely agree. bush is a screwup imo.

i wish gore had won.
So does this guy.

Dear Democratic National Committee and Senator John F. Kerry:

I would first like to congratulate Senator Kerry on his pending nomination and to also thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak my mind.

I lost my job this past year.  When Bill clinton was president, I worked in a prosperous enterprise.  However, within this last year with George W. Bush in office, we were forced to close down our operations.

Far worse, I have lost two of my sons due to Bush's evil war in Iraq. They gave their lives for their country, and for what?  My pain of losing my two sons is indescribable.

While it is trivial next to the loss of my sons, I regret to say that I also have lost my homes.  I simply have nothing left.

I am a senior citizen with various medical problems, and I am not in a position where I can begin a new career.  I have been reduced to the point where I am homeless, all because of President George W. Bush.

Furthermore, when the authorities finally located me did they have any compassion for my misfortune and ailments?  #### no!  Thanks to Bush, I was arrested!!

If I had any money left, I would make a large contribution to the Democratic Party.

If Al Gore had been elected president in 2000, I guarantee you, I would still have my job, my homes, and most importantly, my two sons!

Best regards,
Saddam Hussein
 
  • #48
Very well. There have been many generations of stars before ours, and their destruction gave us the crutial building bloks of earth- hydryogen, carbon, and oxygen.

These gases formed a cloud that eventually condensed under its own gravity to form a hot swirling disc. as it condensed it began to heat up.

Then gas began to spiral and heat even more.
matter falling inward from the disc is ejected in hot gasses from the poles.. Eventually it gets so hot that Nuclear fusion begans in its hot core, and gas is expelled in a wind that blows the dust away. Thats how a star is born. We know that for a fact because there are many stars we can observe in varous stages of this process.

Now the wind is important in the formation of our solarsystem. The remaining gases were blown outward, forming the outher planets. The hevier elements wernt blown away, and eventually they accumulated and condensed into dusty lumps, wich bumped into eachother, when wich they joined, ever forming bigger and fewer lumps. Eventualy the remaining material was swept up by the few largest lumps. One of these was earth.

The new earth was a hot planet, warmed by atoms spewed by a previous generation of stars, and by its own gravity. It sufferd from heavy bombardment from large asteroids and comets wich melted its surface.

291-MoonRing.jpg


sad-smiley-029.gif


where was i?

ya molten earth.

Because it was molten, iron-ritch minerals sank to the center, as so young earth began to accumulate a core of molten iron. Most of the surface was made up of less dense, silicate rock

As it grew the molten core churned around, generating electric current and our magnetic feild.

Heat escaping from the core kept the surounding mantle of silicate rock hot. The slowly flowing mantle carried heat to the surface like convection currents. As the core continued to form, the light gasses were rising to the surface, forming early atmosphere. over time the earth cooled and the hdrogen combined with free oxygen in the atmosphere, forming water. and that is where the geological timescale begins.

(David lambert, Martin Redfern)
 
  • #49
Well thats great but where did the laws of physics that must be present for this to occur come from? Where did the matter come from? If the earth was created from matter what created that matter? This is A beginning but apparently not THE beginning. I don't argue that there was generations of stars before ours but where did they come from? Nothing?

The Bible does not address itself to the age of the earth. Any attempt to determine the age of man biblically is doomed to failure because of the assumptions that must be made. This does not mean that man is necessarily of great age; it just means that the question is not a relevant biblical question. God has the patience to accomplish the earth’s creation and all that is in it over a period of billions of years. God also has the power to create the earth two seconds ago - with you reading this document, the memory in your head, all of man’s history and artifacts in place and functioning. The evidence is that you have been here more than two seconds. The evidence is that the earth and man have been here more than 6,000 years. The question is not the patience of God nor is it the power of God. To say God created the earth with the appearance of age is certainly within the power of God, but makes God deceptive in creating something that would mislead man. This is inconsistent with God’s nature and provides man with a way of abrogating his responsibilities.

The solution to the question of man’s antiquity is to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent. Pitting assumptions and speculations against one another generates confusion and appears to make science and the Bible contradictory. There can be no contradiction with silence. Let us allow the Bible to be silent where God intended for it to be silent.


© John N. Clayton

All I'm saying is there must be a theory on where the protoplanets came from, so now I'm wondering about that. In any case it dosen't counter the need for people to be given EVERY theory in science class.
 
  • #50
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Well thats great but where did the laws of physics that must be present for this to occur come from? Where did the matter come from? If the earth was created from matter what created that matter? This is A beginning but apparently not THE beginning. I don't argue that there was generations of stars before ours but where did they come from? Nothing?


For your information, The pope and church supports the theory of the big bang.
The first stars formed from the ruble. aproximatly 10(-38)ths of a second ..... [thats 10 multiplies by 38].... after the big bang, quarks and antiquarks simotaniously are created and annihilate eachother. 10 (-4) secons after the big bang it is cool enough for protons and nutrons to form., and by 100 seccond they began to link up. by 1 billion years galixies and stars form from this rubble. In the universe, it was a alot smaller then so all of the bilding blocks were condensed into alot smaller of an area then they are now.

see, matter is not spread evenly trought the universe. In the densest packs, the first stars were born.


The law of physics isnt a law, but more of a prediction saying if so and so happens, then it says BLAH will be the outcome.


The law of pysics is incredebly precice. It can predict the outcome of things we have never seen before, and when new discoverys are made, the laws of pysics are proven right again and again.

There is a case when the actual speed of some small, rare obscure particle that i can remember was off bt 1(-200) of a second than what the law of pysics predicted it to be, so to explan it scientists creates the string theory. I cant explain that to you becaue even if i did, only the brightest minds can begin to comprehend it. Its something about 10 dimensions, and a 11 th dimension curled up into a infinite amount of tiny loops. Thats all i know, and now i have to go lay down for awhile because thinking about it makes my head hurt
smile_n_32.gif
 
  • #51
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Well thats great but where did the laws of physics that must be present for this to occur come from? Where did the matter come from? If the earth was created from matter what created that matter? This is A beginning but apparently not THE beginning. I don't argue that there was generations of stars before ours but where did they come from? Nothing?

A while back humans didn't know what the sun was or where it came from, so they made a "god" up to explain it.

Kinda reminds me of present day religion. Anything we can not explain yet is chalked up to "god".

"The Church says the Earth is Flat,
But I know that it is Round,
For I have seen the Shadow On the Moon,
And I have more Faith in a Shadow Than in the Church."
- Ferdinand Magellan
 
  • #52
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ July 13 2004,6:06)]For your information, The pope and church supports the theory of the big bang.

I thought you'd gather from my above post that I do to, I just happen to believe that God inetiated it.  



The law of physics isnt a law, but more of a prediction saying if so and so happens, then it says BLAH will be the outcome.


The law of pysics is incredebly precice. It can predict the outcome of things we have never seen before, and when new discoverys are made, the laws of pysics are proven right again and again.

That is what I believe about it as well, and why they call it a "law" because of the precision. I'm just asking where it came from.
Finch my reply is in you're quote above

Caspar,

Because of science we know the sun is not a god. I'm not sure I understand your point. But in reality, you don't know how the universe began. Neither one of us were there. Notice I said the universe not the earth we;re talking pre-earth here.
Nobody knows there are only theories, so why shoul one be important than the others . I you want school childred to make decisions free of bias then thay should be given all the theorys.
 
  • #53
Been gone and then sick..looks like I better read this whole thread and catch up.
 
  • #54
Wasnt it einstine that developed the modern laws of physics?



In the instant of the big bang, the four fundimental foreces of nature acted as one, and space and time were unified. Thats all we know. Anytrhing past past that kwlege is open to specculation.
 
  • #55
Not all theories are equal. Most common scientific theories, like those surrounding the Big Bang, are based on hundreds of thousands of hours of research, data collection, and analysis. Things like the chemical composition of the stars and planets, their trajectories and speeds, and observation of nebulae and other atmospheric phenomena. These form the basis for scientific theories, and are totally unlike religious proclamations, which have no data or analysis to back them up.

Just because they both are "theories" in no way implies that they are in the same category, or are on equal footing. In education, we should teach the scientific theories that have the most sound basis in science. Not just anyone's random opinion.

Capslock
 
  • #56
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Caspar,

Because of science we know the sun is not a god. I'm not sure I understand your point. But in reality, you don't know how the universe began. Neither one of us were there. Notice I said the universe not the earth we;re talking pre-earth here.
Nobody knows there are only theories, so why shoul one be important than the others . I you want school childred to make decisions free of bias then thay should be given all the theorys.

I can agree with you there, but when you say all theorys then that includes ones written by pagan, islamic, bhudist (sp??) wiccans etc PLUS scientific theorys, right?
 
  • #57
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when
my high
school teacher taught his theory of evolution.
In science class, things should be taught that have to do with real science.  Real science means examining the facts, and coming up with an explanation of those facts.  As new facts are uncovered, the explanation may be proven right, or may need to changed, or may even need to be discarded completely in favor of a new explanation.  That's how science works.

Religion starts with the explanation, then forces the facts to match the explanation by misinterpertation, or just ignoring that which doesn't fit.  Does not belong in a science class room.

By the same token, I would never ask you to to use chemistry of phsyics in church to tell you how to live fullfilling life.  

Using religion for science is like using a screwdiver to bang in a nail.  It's the wrong tool for the job.

Adam and Eve should give way to Atom and EVEolution in school.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Well thats great but where did the laws of physics that must be present for this to occur come from? Where did the matter come from? If the earth was created from matter what created that matter? This is A beginning but apparently not THE beginning. I don't argue that there was generations of stars before ours but where did they come from? Nothing?

I could turn this around and ask "Where did God come from?" The inevitable answer is that God was always there, as He is eternal..... Now why, oh why, it that ANY more believable? I frankly have more faith in the universe coming from nothing based on what I've studied. Saying God is eternal, in my mind, is a cop out to avoid the question. Spontaneous creation of matter is actually an observable phenomenon. I used to be able to explain how it could lead to the creation of everything, but I've been out of the physics classroom so long...
 
  • #58
I have kept quiet about this thread until now but can no longer resist.  After reading the posts, I have come to the conclusion that some of you, both Democrats and Republicans, haven’t got a clue.  The duty of every voter is to “be informed”.  
The following are facts that you can check out yourself and make you a more well informed voter.

In the years between 1995-2001 Maria Teresa Thiersten Simoes-Ferreira Heinz Kerry, (The wife of Presidential Candidate John Kerry.)  gave more than $4 million to an organization called the Tides Foundation. And what does the Tides Foundation do with that money?  Check it out at;
http://www.tidesfoundation.org/index_tf.cfm

The foundation supports numerous antiwar groups, including Ramsey Clark's International Action Center.   Check it out at; http://www.iacenter.org/

They support the Council for American-Islamic Relations, whose leaders are known to have close ties to the terrorist group, Hamas.  Check it out at; http://www.cair-net.org/

They support the National Lawyers Guild.  I can’t even describe that one.  Check it out at;  http://www.nlg.org/

They support the "Barrio Warriors," a radical Hispanic group whose primary goal is to return all of Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Texas to Mexico.  Check it out at; http://carbon.cudenver.edu/MEChA/cmty.html

If voters will open their eyes, educate themselves and see the real
Teresa Heinz Kerry, they will not appreciate her position as ultra rich fairy
Godmother of the radical left. They will not want to imagine her lying
her head on a pillow each night…inches away from the President of the
United States.
 
  • #60
but her husband is and most wives have a perfound influence over what their husbands do. also dont you think he knows she is giving money to these groups? if he didnt want her to wouldnt he do something about it?

Rattler
 
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