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The federal marriage ammendent

  • Thread starter Wesley
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  • #101
Well this thread started with a link -- so let me add another...

http://www.hrc.org

The Human Rights Campaign is the largest GLBT organization in the country - they are actively working to preserve the integrity of the US Constitution - please follow the link and learn more about this issue and the effects it has on ALL PEOPLE not just gay and lesbian americans and how YOU can help with a phone call or email to your congressional representatives.

I've read this entire thread and have found both amusing and disturbing aspects to this debate. Just to continue in the same vein as this thread my position is this is a legal question rooted in the EXISTING constitution and the belief that "equal protection" is actually applied to ALL people - and will ultimately result in a federal court ruling that Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) laws are invalid and eventually unconstitutional -

GWB and his allies cant afford to let that happen hence the need to CHANGE the constitution before a case can work thru the legal system...

I could go thru an explain all the points and various laws currently working thru the system but the bottom line is - the FMA is writing bigotry into the document which defines our country. Is BIGOT a term that you want to define yourself? then dont let the FMA pass - call your congress members.


Michael
JungleWerks Corporation/petflytrap.com
 
  • #102
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]But it is relivent, because everything found in our original Constitution lines up with the Bible.  Why? Because, believe it or not, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and many of our other founding fathers that WROTE our Constitution, were Christains.  Of course if you didn't know that it is because the government has CHOSEN to leave that out, because they didn't want people to know that America was founded on Christain beliefs.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Please read the above twice. Once again, any talk of religion on the subject of passing laws is IRRELIVENT because of the above. If you disagree with this, please go back and read the above again its very cut and dry.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I really believe that if the Bible were a bunch of hogwash, it would have passed out of being LONG ago.  It has survived these many years with MANY people trying to show it's wrongness, and time and time again, they in turn we're shown the error of their accusations.

Paganism survivied/has survived much longer.
 
  • #103
well, we have established that there is NO good reason to not allow gays to marry that is NOT based on the bible or religion..
some of the Christians here have even admitted that!
which I respect..
So, I have another question for the Christians who are opposed to gay marriage..

If Gay marriage did become legal, granting gays the same rights as everyone else, how would that change your life on a personal level?
what changes would it make in YOUR individual life?
How would it personally effect YOUR individual marriage, (if you are married)
or..how would it effect YOUR individual marriage if you get married sometime in the future?
basically..how will it hurt you personally?
please be specific, and make sure it applies to your personal life directly..
no sweeping generalizations!

oh! and we arent assuming it will lead to other things..
thats just pure speculation..
people wont be allowed to marry their dogs,
or have 20 wives, or anything else..
just Gays have the right to marry, and thats it..
nothing else changes..
what REAL ways would that effect your personal life?
thanks,
Scot
 
  • #104
Wesley Frist of all why are you even making this post? Not everyone here is Christian and believes in god. Dont be so closed mined about gays there people as well and they have the right to be together. You say God doesn't want same-sex-marriage? Well like i said NOT everyone follows the bible. So do me a favor and keep your religion to your self please. In your profile you say your open to meeting new people here it is.... Carnivoruos plants(especially sarracenia
Plants in general
Sports(especially tennis
Computers
Gods Word
Meeting new people
    aparently your not too open to meeting new people.
You cant be friends with someone if you dont agree with their life style.
 Electric Carnivores!
 
  • #105
While posting in another thread I was reminded of a great quote so I will share it here.


"The Church says the Earth is Flat,
But I know that it is Round,
For I have seen the Shadow On the Moon,
And I have more Faith in a Shadow Than in the Church."
- Ferdinand Magellan
 
  • #106
Hi Wesley,

It is hard to argue with you as you are obviously a kind hearted, sincere person who takes his beliefs very seriously. Christians may see this issue as a "marriage" issue and some gays may seee it as a marriage issue, but I do not. I see it as an equal rights issue. I do not think that the Christian church should be forced to accept gays since their "god" believes they are an abomination and sin and I do not believe the Church should be forced to marry gays if it believes the only family is the one where the mom stays home and the dad works. I only want the USA to recognize that gay people deserve full equal rights when it comes to two people legally committing to spend the rest of the lives together as a union. The church can say this is wrong all it wants and according to its loving "god" it is wrong. But the USA is not biblical and not Christian and it is absolutely wrong for the USA to have gay union illegal. Call the union whatever you wish but it should be legal yesterday in all 50 states.

Religious people can vote. They can vote based on their beliefs and if enough people share their beliefs they will win and can pass laws that carry their beliefs. They will have one problem in the USA though. At some point their theocracy will run up against the seperation of church and state in America and no matter how many people support their POV, the Supreme Court will be forced (I hope) on principle to declare their laws unconstitutional. Bush and his fundamentalist supporters are stepping all over the line that separates church and state in America and are trying to kick sand over it to hide it so they can slip religious dogma as rational law passed the courts. Hopefully, even Conservatives will stop this evil action and judging from the Conservatives on PFT they will. Christians need to get that most straight Americans no longer live in a biblical moral context. They don't want to follow 2000 year old Roman Empire based Christian ideas of morality. American big business is as immoral as it gets. I always find it funny that Christians only see immorality in behavior when it comes to sex but the immorality of big business never gets a peep out of them. Double Standard Deluxe! Hypocritical! Pharisees!

The real issue here for Christians and what they never admit is that laws like equal rights for gays tell them that the majority of the western world no longer shares their belief that a "god" or a "jesus" is running our lives or the world and that most consider the bible just stories and lessons to try to live by. Laws like these eat at their ideological belief structure fundamentalists shout out to the world and the very real doubts they have about the literal reality of their beliefs creep out into their minds and causes confusion and stress. Doubt. Passing equal rights for gays is another law in the modern world that takes the absolute out of their "god" and places civil society -- reality itself -- above myth and religious legend. The literal interpretation of Christian beliefs has been undermined by the whole 20th century and Christians were pretty certain that at least the old straight socially accepted bigotry against homesexuals would stand and they could believe gays were an absolute abomination in their "god's" eyes. Now humanity is finally dumping that 2000 year old injustice.

Bobby
 
  • #107
don't you see? it's beautiful. it's when two men or two women love each other SO much that they promise to take care and stay faithful to each other for the rest of their lives. it's incredible love.

are you married wesley? if so, do you remember your wedding day? it was probably the happiest day of your life. why would you want to deny is love?
 
  • #108
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]if you can not give me one reason why gays can't get married that doesn't involve religion

Here is one reason "The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife."

Marriage is marriage, the legal union of two men or two women is not marriage.

2. Marriage is unnatural. I someone can't help but feel like murdering people that doen't justify his becoming a serial murderer.

3. The constitution grants people "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". The state does not touch you just for being of a certain race, religion, etc.. However, the law was written according to moral standards. We cannot abandon every single moral in the book just for freedom. Otherwise we will have to allow stuff such as nudity too.

"to present a law for vote do to the fact your religion says its wrong violates the seperation of church and state. your talking about a law the President of the USA is interested in passing cause his religion says its bad. if thats not a violation of church and state i dont know what is. like i said its not against my religion, and i bet its not against some others. Hinduism is one i believe. your than discriminating against my religious beliefs arent you? "

So I guess we should rid ourselves of any trace of Christianity and practice humanitarianism. Wow, we got far in separating church and state.

Peter
 
  • #109
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If Gay marriage did become legal, granting gays the same rights as everyone else, how would that change your life on a personal level?

still havent seen an answer to this simple question...............
 
  • #110
rubrarubra, you seem to be twisting people's words.

put your self in my position, ok? if marriage was defined as the union of 2 men or women, and YOU were straight, how would you feel? i know all that gays can't reproduce naturally blahblahblah, but just answer that ONE question without making a big deal out of it.

and just because something isn't natural does NOT mean it's wrong or bad. as far as i care, anyone who opposes this cause is ignorant.
 
  • #111
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ July 13 2004,8:13)]don't you see? it's beautiful. it's when two men or two women love each other SO much that they promise to take care and stay faithful to each other for the rest of their lives. it's incredible love.
no one has answered this question, either. i'm still waiting. it's open to everyone. why deny us love?
 
  • #112
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Wow, we got far in separating church and state.

How would you feel if the Prez of the USA was Islamic and started trying to pass laws based on his Islamic beliefs?
 
  • #113
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]put your self in my position, ok? if marriage was defined as the union of 2 men or women, and YOU were straight, how would you feel?

I'd feel the world was about to end.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Quote (JustLikeAPill @ July 13 2004,8:13)
don't you see? it's beautiful. it's when two men or two women love each other SO much that they promise to take care and stay faithful to each other for the rest of their lives. it's incredible love.

no one has answered this question, either. i'm still waiting. it's open to everyone. why deny us love?

Sounds like good friends or brotherly love.

Peter
 
  • #114
thats exactly what he's doing now! he's christian and is trying to pass laws based on christian belief!!

i wouldn't mind at all if is was islamic, but i would have problems with him basing laws on ANY religion.
 
  • #115
that is a bunch or crap rubrarubra. you and i BOTH know that i meant in an intimate way, the way a man and a woman love each other.. stop trying to get around the subject.
 
  • #117
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]i wouldn't mind at all if is was islamic, but i would have problems with him basing laws on ANY religion.

So what's so much better about atheism or humanism than Christianity?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]that is a bunch or crap rubrarubra. you and i BOTH know that i meant in an intimate way, the way a man and a woman love each other.. stop trying to get around the subject.

First off, thanks for respecting my argument (not) lol. Anyway, isn't that like good friends except sensuality added in?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]found a good article!
does a good job of refuting any lame arguement..

The article does a decent job of refuting all lame arguments, but not the realistic ones. BTW, I could also post a bunch of articles going the other way....

Now, we can discuss this till the cows come home, but one thing I know, is that in every great civilization that has eventually fallen did shortly after society fell to all sorts of sextual immorality.

Peter
 
  • #118
This has been a wild ride of debates and truths, twisted facts , and even so hurtful statements on both sides.We all have the rights to many things in this society, are we all to have what we want? yes and no is the answer. Who is WE? We is our goverment, yes or no? If you answer Yes than that is where change comes from.
I have an Uncle who is Gay and his life long partner died and he helped him till the day he died. Do I love my uncle Dam right I do! He is the best!!!!! His partner was my friend and they did not complain about thiere rights they carried on as a family for themselves. Does God Love them Yes he did! And still does.. As for the group that is gay, It is my opinion That you need to change the laws and to do that you need to change the way goverment thinks. One thing also on top of change is that people and ideas of others need to change. Change affects things in long term ways also.! People wether Gay or not are affected. Some may want to promote teaching of alternate life styles in schools and some may want to preach in church were alternative lifestyles is felt to be worng. These things become forced on others.
I have nothing against Gay people, They are Human's and are people with feeling and need to be loved wether right or worng in the eyes of others!Gay people have rights also, wether people believe they are worng,they still are humans and are to be treated as such.! I do not see hate in this LONG board of talking! I see people giving thier opinions and being very expresive.
I belive in The bible and As a christian I have to remember that this world is a beautiful place and i can offeer love and care and understanding to others and still have my oun beliefes in god. I May not agree with Gays being married but i can still love them as people.
Some one said here how would it affect me to see these marrages allowed. Probly not to much at all. Would it affect me if my children are to be tought about it in school? I might have a problem with that. How gay marrages would affect our sociaty , we don't know till it happens. A Christian has the same rights to speak thier minds as do Gay people and vise versa..

This will end up being a large debate that might not end for a long long time But we have to remember that here we are all friends that adore cool plants and this board brought all of us together and we are all friends who share the same intristes.

There is something that i totaly disagree with-----

Meeting new people
aparently your not too open to meeting new people.
You cant be friends with someone if you dont agree with their life style.

Electric Carnivores!
Why Can't I be Friends with some like JustLikeAPill even if may not agree with thier lifestyle
confused.gif
?
confused.gif
?
confused.gif
???

Also I hope i did not Offend anyone here It was not my intension

Jim
 
  • #119
Let me say one more thing.. Not all people that support gay marrages are gay and forgive me for my bad typing.. and remember we all need to live on this small planet together.................
Jim
 
  • #120
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]no one has answered this question, either. i'm still waiting. it's open to everyone. why deny us love?

Yes many of us have answered this countless times but you won't accept our answers.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How would you feel if the Prez of the USA was Islamic and started trying to pass laws based on his Islamic beliefs?

Well, Bush isn't Islamic so really this is a pointless question.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You cant be friends with someone if you dont agree with their life style.

This is completely untrue.  You can be friends with someone even though you hate their lifestyle.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]as far as i care, anyone who opposes this cause is ignorant.

As far as i care, anyone who supports this cause is misguided.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]whatever happened to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? if you ask me, by not letting us get married, your violating the constitution.

I think the constitution has been interpreted and reinterpreted way more than was ever intended.  Not every issue in the US relates to the constitution.  One of the main issue that comes to mind is abortion.  Where in the constitution does it say you have the right to have an abortion?  If your pursuit of happiness is having your own children killed then i guess you're covered.  But anyhow the main problem is our judges.  They're so out of the balance of power it's not even funny.  The Sup. court can call anything they want unconstitutional, even if it's not in the constitution, without a check on them.  If congress does something the Pres. doesn't like he can veto it, it's his check on them.  Congress has check on the Pres. too, they can over ride the veto with 2/3s majority.  But the judicial system has really no check.  The only way to get rid of them is to impeach them.


    -buckeye

American Family Assoc.
 
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