The federal marriage ammendent

[sundewguy]

rattler... I know gays don't fall into it. My point is that many straight couples can get married benefits without actually being maried. Gay couples can't even get married. It's a travesty.

 

[scottychaos]

Quote[/b] (buckeye @ July 14 2004,9:14)]Well unfortunately it looks like the homosexual marriage amendment has been rejected in the senate.  It failed 50-48.  It had to get 60 votes to bring debate to a close so then it could have an actual vote in which they'd have to get 66 votes for it to be approved by the Senate.  Oh and guess who the two were that didn't vote on it?  Kerry and Edwards!!!!  Good to see they're still not doing the job they were elected to do!  I think it's great!!  Every vote they miss gives the Republicans a 51 to 47 advantage on the Democrats (& 1 Independent who votes with the Dems.)!!

Quote[/b] ]If Gay marriage did become legal, granting gays the same rights as everyone else, how would that change your life on a personal level?
what changes would it make in YOUR individual life?
How would it personally effect YOUR individual marriage, (if you are married)
or..how would it effect YOUR individual marriage if you get married sometime in the future?
basically..how will it hurt you personally?
please be specific, and make sure it applies to your personal life directly..
no sweeping generalizations!

Why do people who oppose homosexual marriage have to answer this question??  Just because it may not affect me personally can't I still have an opinion on it.  I believe wealthier people should get tax cuts like the rest of us do but I'm not even close to being wealthy and so it wouldn't affect me directly.  So then am i not allowed to have an opinion on that either??  What about the war in Iraq.  Unless a person is over in Iraq or they have a spouse, family member or friend there then the war doesn't affect them directly now does it?  Are they allowed to have an opinion on the war?? We each have so many opinions on matters that don't really affect us directly.  But should we be allowed to have these opinions??  I think we should. Don't you see how lame your question really is??


   -buckeye

I see how lame your refusal to answer it is..
the truth is it will do NOTHING to effect you..
and you know it, but you cant admit that..
because admitting that would be admitting you have no case.

Quote[/b] ]But should we be allowed to have these opinions??

No one is saying you cant have your OPINION on any of these matters!
have any opinion you like!
War, sex, marriage, smoking, whatever..pick any opinion you want and hold onto it!
thats perfectly fine..
and thats not the point at all..
the point is, why should YOUR OPINION become LAW??
there is no reason at all..

and you still didnt answer the question did you?
pretty lame..why are you afraid to admit that allowing gays to marry will do nothing you personally?
maybe because it weakens your cause?
Scot

 

[Clint]

dino, that is not their religion. they are terrorist and are delusional and brainwashed.

 

[Starman]

Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ July 14 2004,3:21)]dino, that is not their religion. they are terrorist and are delusional and brainwashed.

My dad told me they are doing it because of their religion.
You see, the most popular religion in terrorism is fanatiscm.
Fanatics are like palastinians, they are not afraid to die,
and they believe if they blow themselves up and kill the enemy, they will go to heaven.

 

[Clint]

ok ok look. their religion does not tell them to be terrorist, they are fanatics. and not ALL palistinians are like that, not all isreali's are militant either.

there are only a small handful of terrorist fanatics out there, the rest of the people are good

anyway we aren't talking about terrorism here.

 

[PlantAKiss]

OK folks...its been a good, civil debate so far but please don't start with criticisms of someone elses viewpoint. You do not have to agree but you must allow everyone *the right to their OPINION*. Please avoid comments like "that's a pile of crap" and "your ideas digust me." Remember, to someone with an opposing viewpoint, YOUR ideas might digust them!

Please keep this civil...stick to your own opinions without denigrating anyone elses. One of the big points of this entire discussion is freedom of expression, whether it is in words OR lifestyle! "Live and let live."

Stick to opinions...and try to be civil and respectful to others. If you want to express your views...allow others to express theirs as well without attacks.

There is an art to debate...and part of that is being able to keep your head and leave out the emotions, state your viewpoint and offer support for what you believe.

Thanks everybody...I think its a very interesting debate. I haven't had time to chime in yet!

 

[buckeye]

Quote[/b] ]My arguement= Religion can lead to worse things such as murder, terrorism and idiots flying planes into buildings.

You're wrong on this.  People who do this stuff are not following their religion.  They are terrorists.

Quote[/b] ]Heck, we need an amendment to the constitution banning religion right now! Put it right under the gay marriage one.

The problem with this is the fact that the first amendment says we have freedom of religion.  I don't see where it says anything in the constitution about homosexual marriage being a freedom.

Quote[/b] ]the point is, why should YOUR OPINION become LAW??
there is no reason at all..

Why should your opinion to allow homosexual marriage become law??  Every law we have in this country is based on opinions!!!!! Murder, stealing, assult, etc... are all illegal because we have the opinion that these are bad.  Some psychos out there think these things are ok.  Look at gangs they hate laws and cops.  Maybe they don't like the fact that we pushed these opinions on them!!  So should we repeal these laws and become a nation of anarchy??  

Quote[/b] ]and you still didnt answer the question did you?
pretty lame..why are you afraid to admit that allowing gays to marry will do nothing you personally?
maybe because it weakens your cause?

Why don't you answer your own question.  How will allowing homosexuals to get married affect you personally??  Unless you're a homosexual my guess is it won't.  And so according to yourself you shouldn't be pushing a pro-homosexual marriage law since it doesn't affect you personally.

I know one way it will affect me personally.  If it's allowed then I will be force-fed even more pro-homosexual lifestyle propaganda by the news, TV shows and radio.  All trying to make me change my beliefs that homosexuality is wrong.  More gay pride marches will be shown on TV that have homosexuals who practically have sex with each other while they're marching.


   -buckeye

 

[Finch]

Quote[/b] ]All birds are gay, they never have hetereosexual sex, and they have survived for millions of years.

WOH-HO, whered that come from!

Most certainly not true!

This argument is not valid. Birds have matching external sex organs called Cloacas. Birds need to be areodynamic, and to have external sex organs like mammals would hinder their flight.

matching external sex organs does not translate to matching internal ones! Birds only have one hole, and they use it for everything. There are definate differences in males and females. When the Cloacas touch sperm is transferd from the male to the female. Yes the MALE, as females cant self fertilize, just as the malses cant lay eggs. Males birds dont court other male birds. Sometimes they can get confused in the species that look identicle and try to court other males, but thats not usual. telling identicle looking birds of different sexes apart... look at behavior during the breeding season. If you know whta to look for, its simple.

 

[scottychaos]

Finch,
you missed the point of my post!

buckeye,
well..if my opinion shouldnt influence laws, and your opinion shouldnt influence laws, then I guess we both should get what we want!
Gay marriage will become legal, and gay marriage will not become legal..
great thinking!!
thanks for showing me the error of my ways..your way makes so much sense,
we will just have NO opinions effect any laws! (or was it ALL laws are based on opinions? im not sure..I think you said both..)
well, either way, since neither one of our opinions should effect any laws, we will both get what we want! gay marriage and no gay marriage at the same time!
thanks! thats all so clear now!!

Scot

 

[Starman]

Quote[/b] (Finch @ July 14 2004,4:15)]

Quote[/b] ]All birds are gay, they never have hetereosexual sex, and they have survived for millions of years.

WOH-HO, whered that come from!

Most certainly not true!

This argument is not valid. Birds have matching external sex organs called Cloacas. Birds need to be areodynamic, and  to have external sex organs like mammals would hinder their flight.

matching external sex organs does not translate to matching internal ones! Birds only have one hole, and they use it for everything. There are definate differences in males and females. When the Cloacas touch sperm is transferd from the male to the female. Yes the MALE, as females cant self fertilize, just as the malses cant lay eggs. Males birds dont court other male birds. Sometimes they can get confused in the species that look identicle and try to court other males, but thats not usual. telling identicle looking birds of different sexes apart... look at behavior during the breeding season. If you know whta to look for, its simple.

Its true! One of my grans friends has 2 birds, they are both male. They regualy have sex with each other.

 

[Wesley]

Quote[/b] ]So, using YOUR EXACT ARGUEMENT it would benifit this country to ban religion as a whole.

By banning religion as a whole, you are saying that America should become a comunist country. That destroys all free thought.

Quote[/b] ]No one is saying you cant have your OPINION on any of these matters!

So we can have an opinion, but we aren't allowed to act on that opinion in our government? Well, now, what's the point of having an opinion?

Another thing: If the President wanted a law passed and according to SOME religion out in the world it is good or even bad. Does that mean that the law can't be passed because State and religion are not supposed to mix? No matter what law is proposed there is a religion SOMEWHERE that says something about that law. All laws are religion in nature because with soooo many religions out there, there is no possible way to pass a law without there being a religion involved

For all of you guys who say that are answers aren't acceptable. Would you please answer them for us(I am assuming you asked those question because you already had the answer to them)?

 

[Capslock]

I think one of the prerequisites for laws constraining conduct ought to be that the law has a rational, demonstrable basis for constraining that conduct. For example, theft is prohibited because it violates the right to own property.

The arguement is made that gay marriage would violate some people's right to, um, I guess have others follow their religious mandates. Which doesn't seem to me to be a rational basis for a law. In fact, it seems that the right to equal justice under the law is just a tad more important than the right to make others follow your religious constraints.

Please try to understand that the First Ammendment's assurance of freedom of religion means we ALL have it. It does NOT mean that you get to foist your religion on others. That's kind of the opposite.

So, when you vote to mandate compliance with your religious notions, please be aware that you are doing something fundamentally wrong, Unconstitutional, and Unamerican.

Capslock

 

[superimposedhope]

Finch and Starman, he was having fun making up things.

He wasn't saying its actually true.

Joe

 

[Wesley]

Quote[/b] ]For example, theft is prohibited because it violates the right to own property.

But it is also a religous law, in ALL religions.

 

[Starman]

But it is true! Birds fancy male and female birds!
My grandmas male friend finds it funny when the 2 male birds have sex.
His wife(and one of my grandmas good friends) does not find it funny, she is disgusted, she turs away from the cage when the male birds start having sex with each other.

 

[Capslock]

Wesley, good point. But it is not a law based on its inclusion in religion. It's a law because it has a rational basis in protecting people's rights. If NO religion had this prohibition, it would STILL be a good idea. Even we atheists agree with you on this, and MANY other laws that have an equivalent prohibition in Christianity.

The problem is when a law has no corresponding secular basis. For example, we don't have any laws prohibiting idol worship, or graven images, or any of the other things that are purely doctrine-based, and not pluralistic community-based. Public laws that apply to everyone need to have a reason that is applicable and appropriate for everyone.

Capslock

Oh, and buckeye, the ammendment lost 48-50, not 50-48. It didn't even get a simple majority, much less the 60% it needed.

 

[Wesley]

Quote[/b] ] For example, we don't have any laws prohibiting idol worship, or graven images, or any of the other things that are purely doctrine-based, and not pluralistic community-based

Because if we did, there would NOT be religious freedom. That would violate the Constitution.

You still haven't given me the answers to all your questions.

 

[Capslock]

That's the point, Wesley. When someone proposes a law against gay marriage based on the Bible, they are denying religious freedom to those who don't follow the Bible.

Which questions aren't answered? I'll tackle 'em! LOL!

Capslock

 

[superimposedhope]

Yes Starman, it happens throughout the animal kingdom from time to time but he was not seriously stating that all birds are homo.

Joe

 

[scottychaos]

Quote[/b] (buckeye @ July 14 2004,10:06)]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]and you still didnt answer the question did you?
pretty lame..why are you afraid to admit that allowing gays to marry will do nothing you personally?
maybe because it weakens your cause?

Why don't you answer your own question.  How will allowing homosexuals to get married affect you personally??  Unless you're a homosexual my guess is it won't.  And so according to yourself you shouldn't be pushing a pro-homosexual marriage law since it doesn't affect you personally.

I have answered my own question, several times, you must have missed it..here it is again:
"If gay marriage becomes legal, it will have zero effect on my life personally, or on my marriage, it will do no damage to me. - Scot"
there..hopefully that is clear enough..
now..I find it hilarious that this is maybe your 4th or 5th reply about my question, and you STILL refuse to answer it!
Do you hope that maybe if you keep redirecting the conversation enough I might take the bait and go off on a tangent (opinions, or whatever) and forget that you still havent answered the question?
We have fully covered opinions..
according to you, your opinion SHOULD effect laws,
but mine should not.
or..do you think your opinion should ALSO not effect laws?
if so, this debate is ended!!
but I doubt you believe that...you think your opinion should effect laws..otherwise we wouldnt even be having this conversation..
And if I think your opinion should not effect law, then I should feel that mine shouldnt either (and I agree with that..because this issue really has nothing to do with opinions anyway..there ae still people alive today who hold the opinion that blacks should still be slaves..their opinion is irrelevant to the law..as is yours, as is mine..)
this isnt an issue of opinion, its an issue of discrimination, and should discriminiation be legal or not?
So..can we drop oopinions now please?
so..my question..still waiting..
do you want to answer it? or would you like to try some other irrelevant tangent this time? if you avoid the question and redirect the conversation enough times, I probably WILL give up and just stop asking..
but not yet..
Scot