The federal marriage ammendent

[scottychaos]

Wesley,
you said some of God's direct laws, in the old testament, are open to intrepretation:

<span style='color:red'>My dad(and I do too) also plants multiple crops in the same garden.  

My mom wears mixed clothing.  

I shave.  

I have touched dead pigs(not that it was all that fun).  

I pray in  His presence every day, and I have horrible eyesight.  The

Sabbeth isn't difined as Sunday, just as a day of the week when no one works(and in America it happens to be Sunday)  It depends on where you stand with God

Oh, I forgot, this was the Jewish law.  We(or at least most of us) are Gentiles.</span>

So you are saying some of God's laws in YOUR christian bible we dont all have to follow exactly to the letter of the law..
Including you..
I agree with you on that!

but..if we both believe that, why should your one verse that supposidely shows God is against gay marriage hold any weight?
why is THAT one verse NOT open to intrepretation while all those other old verses you get to conviently ignore?
When you yourself say no one has to literally follow everything the bible says, why should we care that one verse might sound like it prohibits gay marriage?
so what?
you cant have it both ways...either you follow the bible or you dont..
and if you dont follow ALL of the bible then you have no credibility when you say all of us in the entire world *should* follow this one teeny verse..and make it into law..
in other words..why should we believe the Bible when you yourself dont even follow it 100%?
Why cant we ALL decide, just like you, that we will pick and choose what verses we will follow, and what verses we will ignore?
If we all want to ignore that Romans verse of yours, why shouldnt we?
you ignore verses too..
Why cant an individuals intrepretation of the Bible be based on  "It depends on where you stand with God"?
and if that is true..why should we base laws on YOUR intrepretation on the Bible based on where YOU personally stand with God?
believe what you like..thats fine..but laws effect everyone..

thanks for admitting you dont have a non-bible based arguement..
thats cool..
but..the bible is irrelevant to law.
YOU need it that way so that YOU are FREE to hold your OWN religious beliefs!!!

If religion starts to be used as a basis of laws, your religion would probably be the first to be outlawed..
Scot

 

[Clint]

no problem rattler_mt. pm me later. i'm glad the orchids are working out for you

you'll have an amazing flower display next spring.

ps, that think you said about me being gay was NOT cool at all.

 

[biggun110]

Hi Wesley,

I am sure you are a nice guy and that your religion helps you but you have to begin to see that beliefs based on Christian dogma have absolutely no place in USA law. Gay people suffer from discrimination based on the power Christians have in this country as the USA is one of the few Western Democracies that still takes religious beliefs as fact. Europe has moved on and left the mythical explanations of human life and history behind as wonderful stories and ceremony but not anybody's WORD and not as a record of reality. Gay people suffer under Christian "emperors" as the early Christians in Rome suffered under Roman rule. It is wrong. It does not matter what an imaginary or real "god" says. It does not matter what a cobbled together, ahistorical, brutal and violent book says. Christianity is utterly meaningless in this debate and the fact that our unelected president panders to the Christian fundamentalists on this issue in a clear violation of USA law -- Clinton was impeached for much less -- to garner votes is just another of many reasons why he does not deserve to be President. Christians have every right to believe as they wish and if they wish to make gay free ghettos for themselves in the modern world that is fine by me. They have no right to pass, support and unhold unAmerican laws that are the product of bigotry, hatred, ignorance and myth. Religion has no place in public life. It has no place in USA law. Christians should learn this now as the day they do achieve their desired social domination over the rest of us will be the day America rejects Christianity and tosss it overboard. Be careful waht you wish for as you may get it. America hates oppression more than gays!

Bobby

 

[Finch]

huh?

 

[greenhouse1]

What a great and lively discussion !  

I was taught that we are ALL made in the image and likeness of God...  No exceptions.  So how can it possibly be wrong to be gay or straight or Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, born with disabilities, etc. etc. etc. ?

And when I learned the 10 commandments I don't recall any reference to differences in color, culture, or gender preference.  Seems they were made to apply to everyone.

And I was also taught that in this country we separate State from Religion...and it's my personal feeling that is the way it should be.  Last time I checked we are ALL supposed to be equal under the law.  

That's my 2 cents...for now anyway.

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

This country is still free of religious control and may it remain ever so!

I am in favor of Gay marrige. It matters not with whom you enter into a loving and trusting (and legally binding) relationship. These relationships need to be given the honor and protection they deserve by our society, and the same rights afforded to Gay relationships as are given to Heterosexual relationships.

This country is not about any one faction dominating or controlling others using their prefered mythology as a justification. Moral righteousness has no part in a State mandated relationship between partners wishing to make a legal contract.

Also I may add, just because you elect to find your fufillment with a mate of the same sex does not mean that you are somehow sick, crimminal, darned or diseased.

Personally, I find the man/woman relationship, although often stressful, to be the "right" thing for me. Our sexuality is not dependent on genetics alone, the issue is far more complex. What is certain is that trying to politically brow beat gays into a "moral" sexual relationship is utterly impossible. Gays are created by the came creative force from which our own souls (be they straight or be they gay) are created, and they deserve the respect anything else in this creation deserves.

 

[droseradude]

Wesley you need some allies
The bible says it is wrong to be gay in the book of Romans
If you are, it doesn't really matter, you ARE ALLOWED to be a Christian and be gay, God just doesn't want you to. The definition of being a believer doesn't mean you follow all of God's regulations, just means you believe in the NEW TESTAMENT....

 

[buckeye]

Hello everyone!  I haven't been around much lately but i decided to check in on terraforums today.

Quote[/b] ]My dad(and I do too) also plants multiple crops in the same garden.  

My mom wears mixed clothing.  

I shave.  

I have touched dead pigs(not that it was all that fun).  

I pray in  His presence every day, and I have horrible eyesight.  The

Sabbeth isn't difined as Sunday, just as a day of the week when no one works(and in America it happens to be Sunday)  It depends on where you stand with God

Oh, I forgot, this was the Jewish law.  We(or at least most of us) are Gentiles.

So you are saying some of God's laws in YOUR christian bible we dont all have to follow exactly to the letter of the law..
Including you..
I agree with you on that!

Some of the things in the Bible that were labeled unclean, such as pigs, were labeled that as a way to protect the people of that time from diseases.  Pigs were very dirty because they ate nasty, diseased things that were in the streets.  God told the people that pigs were unclean as a way to protect them from disease.  As for dead things God said: "And everything on which a part of any such carcass falls shall be unclean; whether it is an oven or cooking stove, it shall be broken down; for they are unclean, and shall be unclean to you."  God was telling the people that dead meats can cause you to become sick and so you should get rid of things infected by them.  "But the earthen vessel in which it (meat) is boiled shall be broken. And if it is boiled in a bronze pot, it shall be both scoured and rinsed in water." This is another example of God warning people that they should clean or destroy items infected from meat.  My point in all of this is that some of the laws in the Bible were put there as a way to protect people from dangers they didn't know about then, such as germs and bacteria.  Since we know about germs and the proper ways to cook meats and clean up our cookware we can disregard some of these laws.

I agree with Wesley that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. Why i believe this: 1. It is clear in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong.  2. It is unnatural. Reproduction can't occur between two men or between two women. 3. It's a chosen lifestyle.  I don't believe people are born homosexual but rather they learn the behavior and lifestyle.

One thing that irks me about the whole homosexuality thing in America is that if you believe homosexuality is wrong then you're labeled homophobic, a gay-hater, a bigot, close-minded, ignorant, and out of touch.  If a person thinks smoking is wrong they're not labeled a smoker-hater. So why are people who think homosexuality is wrong labeled these things??  I don't get it.



     -buckeye

 

[superimposedhope]

I don't agree with all of what you said but it was well written and an intelligent debate from your side.

Joe

 

[swords]

I stay out of political and religious discussions (in person or here) because I don't really want to know anyones opinion and I'm not out to change anyone. I didn't read any of the resposnes above so that I'm not feeling any alliances or detractions with anyone. I will just make my statement:

I'm probably the christian governments worst nightmare politically and ideologically and we'll just leave it there... I'm not gay but I support all forms of human rights and get very upset when I hear of inequality in anyform.

 

[Casper]

Quote[/b] ]I agree with Wesley that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. Why i believe this: 1. It is clear in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong.

You just dont get it. While you may disagree with them marrying I am completly offended that MY TAX DOLLARS are being used to promote a religous belief.
I don't care how your god views gays. This is about gays being able to have the same RIGHTS as us, but because your god says its wrong then our gov't should pass a law to ban it?
What would you say to an Islamic senator putting a bill on the ballot that all women should cover there faces at all times because HIS god says so.

I personally dont think homosexual relationships are natural either, but who am I to say they arn't entitled to the same RIGHTS that I am.

 

[biggun110]

Quote[/b] ]
I agree with Wesley that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. Why i believe this: 1. It is clear in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong.  2. It is unnatural. Reproduction can't occur between two men or between two women. 3. It's a chosen lifestyle.  I don't believe people are born homosexual but rather they learn the behavior and lifestyle.

Ok, so what if the Bible says homosexuality is wrong? Why does that matter? The Bible is simply a religious book that Christians read to instruct them in their religion. It has nothing to do with the USA, our laws, the government, the lives of non-Christians or anything else. It is not the absolute truth for anyone but fundamentalist Christians.

Reproduction may be the driving cause in sex within non-human species but with our evolution came a complex inner emotional/social life surrounding sex that has nothing to do with reproduction and everything to do with pleasure -- that powerful drive in our evolutionary development -- pleasure. One reason the Bible is such a dangerous document today if used as law rather than parable is that it references human civilization 2000 years ago. To say the least, it is a bit out of touch. Anyway, it can honestly be said that the only form of absolutely unnatural sex for human beings would be sex for the sole purpose of simple reproduction. That ain't human.

Why would anyone CHOOSE to suffer hatred, bigotry, cruelty, injustice, oppression and second class status to simply pursue a lifestyle? That argument has to be the single most insulting POV that Christians hold on homosexuals. It ranks up there with the horrible bigotry that African Americans are dumb and lazy. Homosexuality is not chosen. It is innate. It is seen throughout the mammal family. I have seen it in my fish. One day they will define the biological origin of homosexuality just as they will that of heterosexuality. It is genetic. One day, Christians will have to see that their book was wrong here and in many other places (Eden) and that science and knowledge has long since superceeded 2000 year old cultural "fairy" tales. Christians must find a way of believing in their god without effecting the rest of us and without pretending that everything associated with its history is absolute truth.

Quote[/b] ]
One thing that irks me about the whole homosexuality thing in America is that if you believe homosexuality is wrong then you're labeled homophobic, a gay-hater, a bigot, close-minded, ignorant, and out of touch.  If a person thinks smoking is wrong they're not labeled a smoker-hater. So why are people who think homosexuality is wrong labeled these things??  I don't get it.

Smoking IS a choice; homosexuality is not. (Comparing homosexuality to smoking reveals the respect one gives it.) darning homosexuals based on 2000 year old cultural ideas is ignorance in the light of our more enlightened, scientific world. When people worry about the non-threatening lives of their neighbors based on race, sex, gender, homosexuality, class, etc. it can only be explained by fear, ignorance, hatred, etc. When they support unjust laws as "morally" right it can only be explained by exposing the underlining fear and hatred motivating those beliefs. Religion has been the worst creation of humanity for 3000 years as it allows human beings to project their selfish egos into an imaginary "divine" power and then turn around and use their all too human imaginary creation to oppress and kill other humans in the name of a "god". This is why religion must never have any part in our government and must always remain a completely individual private affair. Jesus would have been against the death penalty and its Old Testament "eye for an eye" morality and yet Christians support the death penalty. Why? It totally corrupts their belief system -- turn the other cheek. The problem is not that outwardly polite gay-bashers are thought to be bigots but that our culture and its unelected leader do not say so in clear and direct statements. They actually fan the bigotry in the name of the family. Spin. Spin. Spin. Politics. Politics. Politics. Selfishness. Selfishness. Selfishness. Power. Power. Power.

Bobby

 

[ZAK]

Well I definitely agree with Wesley, and Buckeye on this, of course I see with the same eyes as them. I’m also not shooting from the hip blindfolded as some of you. Here’s the deal
1. A marriage should be defined as a binding relationship between a MAN, and WOMAN. If gay people want to get together and do whatever than in America that is their right. Just don’t call it marriage for the sole sake of benefits. I mean after all marriage IS a biblical concept and we are trying to avoid that RIGHT?
2. It seems that now were discriminating in favor of gay rights. If it’s family benefits that the issue why should only people considered gay get these rights? Why not also make those “family benefits” available to say brothers and sisters whom live together to make end meet or two widowers in the same boat. I’m all for equal opportunity but that’s a sham now as well. it’s not equal. I may be the most qualified candidate for a job position, but since the company is short of this color or that color someone less qualified is hired.
3. My friend makes an excellent point, to use a fictional example. The TV show full house The mother dies, and the brother and friend move in and begin functioning as a family unit. In that type of instance shouldn’t THEY receive the same benefits as a married couple. Why are we now discriminating in favor of gay rights?
4. The idiot writing to Dr. Laura was misinformed and uneducated, and had no idea of the impact the last 2000 years has had. This is the only thing warranting a response so I’ll drop it here.

 

[schloaty]

Quote[/b] ] it willl in some way or another be linked to the Bible.

Time for my 2 cents. Wesley's quote from above says it all. Any reason for thinking being gay is bad can be traced back to the bible and therefore has no place in US law.

And don't even give me the crud about "Well, the Bible says murder is wrong, so maybe that shouldn't be against the law, either."
apples and oranges.

Also, whether or not you agree with gay marriage, don't you think the issue is rather low on the totem pole? Do you realize how MAJOR a constitutional amendment is? Bush want to add an AMMENDMANT? For crying out loud! I can think of SO many other things upon which this energy and money can be better spend...like, oh, say conservation, education, health care....list goes on...

Let's get our priorities straight, people! ....oh...pardon THAT pun.

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

Bobby,

Well said, sir! One of mankind's biggest rip off's has been due to the force feeding of the Christian dominated social construct that pleasure is to be essentially linked with sin and guilt, rather than being the natural birthright of all. There is nothing wrong or sinful in sex! Sex is not a punishment meted out by the Creator because Adam and Eve failed to meet the Plan, it is a normal and essential part of being human. Religions have manipulated and controlled this powerful human urge towards attaining pleasure for far too long, and the results in our society are ugly: broken marriges, illegitimate children, guilt and repression, sexual perversion: all stem from an inability to express sexuality and seek plesure in a normal way. Why any rational being would freely elect to embrace such a demostrably destructive system is beyond my ken, but I must insist that it be kept behind closed doors and in private worship and totally out of Law! Unfortunately, the Church is a powerful special interest lobbying force in our political arena. Were this question to be put to the American people, Gay rights would be in place tomorrow. Morality cannot and should not be legislated, and the Church is responsible for far more evil than any Gay relationships ever will be or has ever been. Love in any form comes from the Creator, and the real SIN lies in the pettieness of men who will not recognize this Truth. Shame on them! What would Jesus think about this nonsense? He said he came to destroy the Law, to burn the books - to teach a new way of looking at our human interconnectedness, and this pointedly did not revolve around moral judgements, blind adherence to moral law, or exclusion of anyone based on their real or imagined sins.

 

[Clint]

"I agree with Wesley that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. Why i believe this: 1. It is clear in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong.  2. It is unnatural. Reproduction can't occur between two men or between two women. 3. It's a chosen lifestyle.  I don't believe people are born homosexual but rather they learn the behavior and lifestyle. "

1=this is politics, hun. the bible is IRRELEVENT! it is a book. okay? it is paper, ink, and a cover.
2- how do you know it's unnatural? did you make nature? are you god? some creatures dont need another male OR female to make kids, i guess they are unnatural, too. also, if you think that men and women have sex everytime for the SOLE reason of reproduction, your sadly mistaken, my friend. they do it because it feels GOOD. the only time i can think of them having sex for the sole reason of reproduction is when they are purposely trying to have a baby.
and FYI, we dont need to have sex with women just to have a baby, ever heard of adoption or in-vitro fertilization?
3- are you gay? ever been gay? well untill you HAVE been gay, dont you DARE tell me i chose to be this way. i didn't choose the harder way to live my life. i was born this way, it happened. i wouldn't have it any other way. did you choose to be straight, buddy? or were you born that way. think of it like that.

 

[biggun110]

Hi,

   I totally agree, individuals should receive all the same benefits as married couples. I've never understood that double standard. It's not like the world is short on human beings so that we need to encourage childbirth and large families any more. We need to encourage fewer births and small families.

  Personally, if we want to define the word marriage as purely a religious concept for heterosexuals, I have no problem with that. Just provide all the rights and benefits under another name for homosexuals. I have no desire to fight for the rights of homosexuals to be married under the name of a "god" and a religion. That's just silly. All I care about is complete equal rights and benefits for all.

It is funny to me that Christians reject the Old Testament when it gets in the way of their spin but they want the Old Testament 10 Commandments posted in Court Houses and they are just fine with the Old Testament "an eye for an eye" when it comes to justifying capital punishment. Christians cherry pick the Bible to support their personally favorite causes without respect to Old or New Testament except when it comes to homosexuality. Then they hypocritically ignore all the insane laws in the Bible that they themselves do not follow and do not see as the word of a "god" and dismiss them as Old Testament junk. They say New Testament Christian laws -- these are absolutes and true. Funny, how the "jewish god" can be cherry picked but when he was co-opted by the Roman Empire he became absolutely right. Makes you wonder if Christianity's evolution was not overly influenced by the Roman Emperor's idea of his absolute authority; or the Pope inherenting this sick tradition of absolute authority; to now Jesus' absolute authority -- I smell human selfishness in these "absolute" beliefs. Whenever a human being pronouces an absolute that is not of the physical world, I run for cover. In such situations, "god" always seems far too self servingly human in its actions and beliefs.

No one is discriminating against anyone else by giving gay people their full civil rights as individuals. No one else has to give up their rights to give gays their rights. Now people do have to accept that their 2000 year old religious beliefs are fine for themselves but utterly meaningless in US law. They have to accept that this portion of their religion goes against the logical implications of "equality and freedom for all." The  man made Enlightenment which stands behind our laws, in this case, is more "Jesus" than Christianity itself.

There is an enormous difference between trying to give all races a chance at jobs by taking race into account as one factor in making a decision and the old wholesale discrimination against African Americans so that they had little or no chance to get most well paying jobs. Affirmative Action may not always be fair but it is not reverse discrimination. A white person who looses a job to AA can still go to many other places to get the same or better job. Until the 1970's in America, African Americans could not get a good job or go anywhere else if they were refused a job based on race. Reverse discrimination is an easy knee-jerk reaction used to rile people up. AA may be unfair at times but AA is not discrimination. It is a limitation. That is the difference. Can it be abused on an individual basis -- sure. Just like some businesses are honest and some are total cheats defrauding their customers and the IRS. But abuse is not the same as the old institutional discrimination against African Americans. Christianity cannot be used to deny gay men and women the right to live in respect and acceptance within the laws of the nation they support as law abiding tax paying citizens. The fact that Christians would deny this logic is why so many people find their "love" and their "follow Jesus" to be less than real.

Bobby

 

[Starman]

I agree. The bible has NOTHING to do with marriges. But, I think gays should be allowed to marry. why? Because its their choice if they want to marry or not! Same as its a criminals choice if he wants to rob a house. Same as its my choice to be a gardner like allan titchmarsh.

 

[Clint]

biggun, i dont think we should have the same thing for gays under a different name. ever heard of "seperate but equal" well america tried that once and things were not equal.

an apple isn't an orange, and a different name for marriage that only applies to gays is not marriage.

 

[ZAK]

Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ July 13 2004,11:05)]2- how do you know it's unnatural? did you make nature? are you god? some creatures dont need another male OR female to make kids, i guess they are unnatural, too. also, if you think that men and women have sex everytime for the SOLE
3- are you gay? ever been gay? well untill you HAVE been gay, dont you DARE tell me i chose to be this way. i didn't choose the harder way to live my life. i was born this way, it happened. i wouldn't have it any other way. did you choose to be straight, buddy? or were you born that way. think of it like that.

Yes, JLAP you are correct some species do not require both genders of the species to reproduce, but since your typing this I assume you're not one of them. So that point's illrelavant
We are talking about HUMANS. If you want to involve the animal kingdom, and akin their instinct to mankind we're back to the whole murder issue. A spade is a spade.

I know I'll catch some flack for this one.

I don't doubt you were born gay, in the same respect I don't doub't my father was born an alcoholic.

Now is their such thing as a gay gene? Absolutly not.
First if you're implimenting evolution as a premise for doing what you want then their would be no gay people. Evolution, to my limited understanding, is the advancement of a species over time through the sucessfull adaptation of new generations. Homosexuality is a trait that negatively effects the human species and it's advancement. Secondly if homosexuality was genetic it would have dissapeared a LONG time ago (I.E.) they don't reproduce. Don't even say "well some gays do reproduce" because that would prove it's a choise. I not knocking anyone for doing what their heart tells them, but you can't reject religion, and science and still have a leg to stand on when used for self-serving idealogy. Also throughout history homosexuality occoures within civilazation in waves. If it were genetic it would be much more even, and of course bred OUT of scociety.     ........Just a breeders point of view.