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I had a "fit"

  • #21
Administering antivenin is not standard practice for most snake bites. As mentioned it has serious potential side effects Serum sickness as well as anaphalxis shock. There have been no recorded deaths from Copperhead snakes. Standard medical protocol is to monitor the swelling for Copperhead snakes.
 
  • #22
Well it was a copperhead(unless it was a rattler,or cottonmouth, but I didn`t here a rattle never actually saw the snake) and the damage wasn`t that localized as you can tell from my previous post. It hurt real bad! Obviousley you haven`t been bitten. I wouldn`t keep a copperhead as a pet they are very agressive. I got bit without even agrivateing the snake I was just picking up a pear then WHAMO I was bit.
 
  • #23
Well Tony the swelling was going into my chest so it certainley was warented!
 
  • #24
the new crofab is good stuff serum sickness is almost nonexistant compared to the old type of antivenom but i believe there is a bit of a shortage. to me it doesnt sound like a copperhead although i could be wrong. i would think its prolly a rattler bite as cottonmouths arent anywhere near as aggressive as their reputation says. either way if the swelling was spreading to you chest than yes you needed the antivenom, no question. and no i havent been bit but i know ppl who have. i truely believe your pain was darn near unbearable but for pain in viper bites they normally give morphine unless you blood pressure is low. the antivenom does nothing for pain it just slows the progression of the venom. just curious, how much was your doctor bill? my understanding is that minor venomous snake bites start at about $7000 and go up fast from there, good as reason as any to not keep hots.

Rattler
 
  • #25
Yeah you should watch the show called Venom ER in the afternoon on animal planet. It's really informational and neat to watch. They do a great job. On neutralizing the venom. Too bad you weren't transported there.
smile_h_32.gif
 
  • #26
I have no doubt the pain was mindnubbing.  NO I haven't been bit.  Does that mean I don't know anything about snake bites or pain?
If you reread my statement you will see that I said the standard protocol for copperhead is to monitor the swelling.  Antivenin is reserved for severe cases and for certain other more poisonous snakes.  On your first visit there was probably only localized swelling so in that instance antivenin would not be appropriate.  Only later would it become apparant whether you would need the antivenin or not.  In almost all cases of copperhead bites it is not used and the patient recovers.  To treat everyone with antivenin across the board as soon as they showed up with a snake bite would likely cause more damage than good because of the potential side effects, as well as use up very expensive and in short supply antivenin possibly making it unavailable for someone that truely needs it.

Sorry you got bit.. but it's not the hospital or the physicians fault you did.
 
  • #27
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ChronoKiento @ Sep. 27 2004,3:11)]Yeah you should watch the show called Venom ER in the afternoon on animal planet. It's really informational and neat to watch. They do a great job. On neutralizing the venom. Too bad you weren't transported there.
smile_h_32.gif
Yeah thats a pretty good show. I watched it when I was in the hospital for my current condition.
 
  • #28
[b said:
Quote[/b] (rattler_mt @ Sep. 27 2004,3:04)]the new crofab is good stuff serum sickness is almost nonexistant compared to the old type of antivenom but i believe there is a bit of a shortage. to me it doesnt sound like a copperhead although i could be wrong. i would think its prolly a rattler bite as cottonmouths arent anywhere near as aggressive as their reputation says. either way if the swelling was spreading to you chest than yes you needed the antivenom, no question. and no i havent been bit but i know ppl who have. i truely believe your pain was darn near unbearable but for pain in viper bites they normally give morphine unless you blood pressure is low. the antivenom does nothing for pain it just slows the progression of the venom. just curious, how much was your doctor bill? my understanding is that minor venomous snake bites start at about $7000 and go up fast from there, good as reason as any to not keep hots.

Rattler
I think it was somewhere near $70,000 that our insurence didn`t cover. Thankfully the people at that hospital didn`t make us pay a cent!
smile_k_ani_32.gif
 
  • #29
like i said go up quickly. good to hear you didnt have to pay. not sure why your insurance wouldnt cover. generally they cover bites from snakes unless it happens to be a "pet" in whitch case they usually drop you entirely.

Rattler
 
  • #30
I think snakes have a bad reputation of being agressive.
Their venom is very precious to them and will not attack unless they feel threatened. I've seen that copperheads are actually pretty tollerant to being disturbed. There was this program on... I think national geographic... might have been animal planet... that they tested the agressiveness of cottonmouths and copperheads and found that if you step near them, they usually won't bite. They'll run away... if you gently step on them, cottonmouths will gape their mouth and copperheads may not do anything or if they do something it's usually a dry bite (75% of all venomous snake bites in the US are dry bites) Sometimes you can even gently pick up one of them and they STILL won't bite.
anyway they will first try to run away/warn you instead of wasting their precious venom on you. rattlesnakes will rattle, cottonmouths will gape, others will hiss, others will rattle their tail so the dry leaves make a noise "similar" to rattlesnakes, etc..
I've picked up a bunch of snakes and I've only been bitten twice and I provoked both of them. W/ one I picked it up and w/ the other one I cornered it and started taking close up pictures (sort of)(I don't pick venomous ones up by the way... I've never even SEEN one
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). I once picked up a black rat snake and it was faking trying to bite me but it never did (I picked it up and it was going to bite my wrist but I didn't move so it just stopped w/ it's mouth open and when I STILL didn't move it just turned away.)

are you sure you didn't provoke it? (and don't take that the wrong way... I mean that maybe you went to pick something up and you didn't see it so you put your hand in front of it's face or maybe you sat down and brushed against it or something)
 
  • #31
Situations like this are just horrible, particularly when someone who has a condition such as yourself has to deal with it. What that store did was clearly wrong.

However, I don't think it was such a big deal to get worked up over things considered. That $8.00 isn't worth sacrificing your health for. :\

Of course, now you can take them to the cleaners should you file legal action. ;)
 
  • #32
Geeze.. talk about overreacting. It's sad how many people are so sue happy these days.
 
  • #33
Yeah I would have to agree with Bonnie. It seems like from what you describe it was a pretty petty thing to be arguing about anyway. If that is there policy that all sales are final then thats there policy. I think there might have been a little bit of overreacting
 
  • #34
I wittnesed a similar situation a few years back when I was working as Director of Human Resources for a large retail store. A yound person came into the store to buy some reduced price  merchandise. There were signs posted everywhere that these particular items being purchased were "ALL SALES FINAL". A few days later these items were advertised in a flyer with even more  reduced prices. The customer brought the merchandise back and demanded exchange for the same product at reduced prices. The answer of course was 'NO'. There was definitely some arguing going on...mainly from the customer...and then the customer had a seizure.

The customer decided to sue for everything; legal fees, medical bills, pain and suffering, etc. I was present in the sidelines watching the entire episode as I routinely did to monitor our customer service agents. I was required to appear in court as a wittness. Here's what the judge said: Because we had clearly labeled the products as "ALL SALES FINAL" we were within our right to refuse return or exchange of the product. We were also within our right, as a retailer, to place these items in an ad flyer to move them out at a faster rate; ie. with a further reduced price and not be required to exchange them for the reduced rate even though they were purchased within the week the ad came out.

The judge said we COULD HAVE honored an exchange if we wanted to, but being as greedy as the store owner was...he didn't. The judge also stated that he felt the seizure was the result of a "childish temper tantrum" brought on entirely by the customer. The customer told the judge that he informed the sales clerk of his special medical condition, that he should not be pushed into emotional distress and the judge immediately dismissed the case because he felt the customer was trying to 'use' his condition to bend the rules and get what he wanted and it was none of our business knowing about his medical condition because it had no bearing on the normal day-to-day practices of exchanging money in the retail realm. Of course if he was in a wheelchair and we did not provide disabled access then we would have been in the wrong. The case was dismissed but the judge ruled that the customer pay all legal fees for our store. BTW....I personally do not feel you were 'using' your illess as a crutch, if you'll pardon the term. You were a victim of extremly poor customer service practices. I also told the court that I felt the customer was being sincere but it's the judge who needs convincing in these cases.

Needless to say we didn't charge the customer for the legal fees and ended up giving the customer the reduced rate product free of charge and even paid for HIS legal fees (thanks to me) but he was permanently barred from our store (thanks to the store owner). I had tried to talk the owner into just giving in before we went to court but being the d**k that he is, he declined and wanted to fight to prove his point. A few months later I resigned my position. There had been further episodes of uncalled for greed and questionable business practices on the part of the owner that I didn't want my name associated with. I feel the store owner should have just honored the exchange and it wouldn't have cost us the legal fees and headache and we would have had a happy customer. This was clearly a case where the store owner didn't believe in true customer service, but was instead governed by his own greed. And all this over a price difference of a few dollars.

Yes it is very true that many people are sue happy over the most ridiculous issues. But be forewarned...the courts know this and are staunch about taking the side of the business owner's rules and procedures, provided they are clearly marked and anyone trying to sue over medical negligence in a case like this has a 99% chance of losing their case. It was not the store's fault that you went into a fit. You allowed yourself to get upset by not accepting their policies. True, they were "probably" (notice the spelling here?) acting like jerks, but they were within their right to stand by their policies.

Pond Boy, your health is far too precious to let yourself get so upset. You've just learned the horrible truth about retail. There really are people out there who don't give a c--p about the health and well being of their customers. To them it's all about the bottom line. We all stand by you 100% that they were wrong in how they treated you. Live and learn and keep yourself healthy. We enjoy having you around.

Phil
 
  • #35
I almost got bit by copperheads years ago. I was crawling after a lizard in Springfield , MO and there were four or five adults all together under a pile of leaves I was about to crawl into. I saw a thick body at he last second. There was so much body, I thought this was impossible. SO I backed off and poked sections with a stick, and everytime I did, a head poked out to look at me. Boy that gave me the willies.
They are not supposed to be overly aggressive(cottonmouths also), but in that case...that could have been bad. That is their main ambush tactic for prey, since they blend into dry leaves so well. My dad had stepped on once when mowing the yard, and it was just in a scramble to get away and did nothing. Years later, the developement(five houses) had somebody go across the lake and kill all the snakes
smile_h_32.gif

Now, I am really out of the loop, because I thought anti-venom was used in all bite cases. It can wreck havoc in some, as a childhood friend was bit by a copperhead he picked up(idiot) and the serum was bad for him. They said if he ever got bit again, he was screwed.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #36
I was re-reading the medical inccident. I would think they would keep you overnight for observation when bitten by a venomous snake.

Joe
 
  • #37
the reason that the old anti-venom is bad is because of how it is made. it is made using horses(who are not harmed btw, no worse than a couple shots). they get minute injections of snake venom and slowly build up antibodies to the venom. the serum is collected from their blood, purified and viola you have antivenom. the problem is alot of other human vaccines are made the same way so over the course of your life you can develop an allergy to the horses antibodies. the small amount in a vaccine is no big deal but the large amounts in antivenom can be a huge deal(10-15 vials can be used for an envenomation). the new Crofab i believe is useing sheep or goats. there are some other things that make it better too but if i remember right this is the main difference. less Crofab can be used because its more effective, it goes into silution better/quicker than the old stuff. alot of research went into this new stuff but its harder to make huge lots of it.

Rattler
 
  • #38
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]but being as greedy as the store owner was
why? he had it clearly posted and the customer was the greedy and selfish one. If store owners didn't obay their own rules, everyone would be wanting to get better deals every time there's a sale....
griffin, was it close to winter? Copperheads overwinter communaly and they were either coming in/out of a cave or something... maybe warming themselves up.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]SO I backed off and poked sections with a stick, and everytime I did, a head poked out to look at me. Boy that gave me the willies.
They are not supposed to be overly aggressive(cottonmouths also), but in that case...that could have been bad
lol.... I'd say you were more agressive than them (he he he :p)
 
  • #39
[b said:
Quote[/b] (The Griffin @ Sep. 30 2004,10:34)]SO I backed off and poked sections with a stick, and everytime I did, a head poked out to look at me. Boy that gave me the willies.
And thats exactly what makes nice copperheads aggressive and mean. The next time they see a human the first thing they'll think of is YOU pissing them off with a stick... And they'll be MUCH more inclined to bite. Please don't poke snakes with sticks, they ARE vonurable to stuff like that, and you could have easily killed one of them by breaking a vertebre.
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Who knows, they could have been in a mating ritual that you disturbed. Things like that imprint on animals in a negative way.

-Spec
 
  • #40
No, it was Summer. I thought that kind of odd, too, that so many would be in the same place. They were probably anywhere from 2' to...bigger. one was bigger around than my wrist . I assume they were Osage copperheads, as I think that is tin the range and I have seen Southerns, and they looked remakedly different.
I honestly don't think they have the memory to remember me touching sections of body and rustling the surrounding leaves with a dry piece of reed(simulating a small critter), to see the head of the snake....certainly not after people were hired to go over there and wipe them out. Maybe my description seemed more violent?
 
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