NO FLIP-FLOP?
Heres a good example of kerrys plan. No matter what you think about anything Kerry agrees with you
Heres a good example of kerrys plan. No matter what you think about anything Kerry agrees with you
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Presidential debate
- Thread starter Amateur_Expert
- Start date
I'm not real heavy in this debate stuff and I won't revisit this post.... But, I don't understand how people are not seeing the flip-floping going on by Kerry..... But you are right ZAK... At least he agrees with *points at you* You!! hehe[b said:Quote[/b] (ZAK @ Oct. 01 2004,5:34)]NO FLIP-FLOP?
Heres a good example of kerrys plan. No matter what you think about anything Kerry agrees with you
Andrew
Hello,
It is not -- to use the Bush propaganda laced term -- "flip-flopping" to vote to give the President the AUTHORITY to invade Iraq AS A LAST RESORT if all the supporting evidence is TRUE and then to be against the exact time and place the President chooses to say, "war now". Bush abused his power on Iraq and is paying for that ideologically driven blunder. One can vote for the PREPARATION for POSSIBLE war without it meaning "my country right or wrong." Kerry's so-called "flip-flopping" is the reasoned, multi-layered response of a man involved in the REALITY of world affairs; Bush's "hard work", "stay the course even when my reasons to go in the first place were proven false" is the posturing of a shallow mind that has memorized a script and, like an amateur actor with little real experience, gets nervous when it must actually THINK! Kerry deals with ALL the circumstances of the real world. Bush turns it into a script and plays the play in his and his cronies' head. If that is what you want in the leader of the free world -- selling lies to save face, pursue ideology and win -- by all means vote for Bush. Just because the Repubs call John Kerry a name (flip flopper) does not mean the bullies on the playground are right -- big stones or peanuts aside.
Bobby
It is not -- to use the Bush propaganda laced term -- "flip-flopping" to vote to give the President the AUTHORITY to invade Iraq AS A LAST RESORT if all the supporting evidence is TRUE and then to be against the exact time and place the President chooses to say, "war now". Bush abused his power on Iraq and is paying for that ideologically driven blunder. One can vote for the PREPARATION for POSSIBLE war without it meaning "my country right or wrong." Kerry's so-called "flip-flopping" is the reasoned, multi-layered response of a man involved in the REALITY of world affairs; Bush's "hard work", "stay the course even when my reasons to go in the first place were proven false" is the posturing of a shallow mind that has memorized a script and, like an amateur actor with little real experience, gets nervous when it must actually THINK! Kerry deals with ALL the circumstances of the real world. Bush turns it into a script and plays the play in his and his cronies' head. If that is what you want in the leader of the free world -- selling lies to save face, pursue ideology and win -- by all means vote for Bush. Just because the Repubs call John Kerry a name (flip flopper) does not mean the bullies on the playground are right -- big stones or peanuts aside.
Bobby
I think Kerry definitely debated better than Bush. Bush looked lost, tired, and it seemed he had a bunch of memorized phrases he kept resorting to when he couldn't think of anything else to say. There is a lot of criticism of Kerry for flip-flopping, but as Finch said, what is wrong with changing your opinion in light of new facts? Shoot, if nobody ever flip flopped, we'd still believe the earth was flat and at the center of the universe. Also, I dare anyone to name a president that never flip-flopped. Sadly, it's what our presidential candidates do to get elected. I'd like to see a list of all campaign promises that were never acted upon.
I don't know who I'm voting for yet, but it definitely won't be Bush, and probably won't be Kerry. Probably Nader, just because he honestly cares about the average citizen and doesn't give any BS and doesn't seek the presidency in order to make money for his cronies, ala Bush.
If you're making millions of dollars per year, then Bush would definitely be your man. If not, he ain't gonna do you any better than Kerry. As far as national security, I see the candidates as even. Bush talks a tough fight, but his administration really screwed the whole thing up and should've gone about it in a different way. He seems to be only going on the offensive, when we need a little defense and special teams in there as well. They just went into Iraq with a bully attitude, with no thought on what to do after Saddam was done. Now the whole thing is a mess and I think it's time we get a new administration to try to undo this fiasco. I personally cannot see how anyone thinks he's a good president, unless you're in the oil industry. He's a puppet, an idiot, and the laughingstock of the rest of the world.
I don't know who I'm voting for yet, but it definitely won't be Bush, and probably won't be Kerry. Probably Nader, just because he honestly cares about the average citizen and doesn't give any BS and doesn't seek the presidency in order to make money for his cronies, ala Bush.
If you're making millions of dollars per year, then Bush would definitely be your man. If not, he ain't gonna do you any better than Kerry. As far as national security, I see the candidates as even. Bush talks a tough fight, but his administration really screwed the whole thing up and should've gone about it in a different way. He seems to be only going on the offensive, when we need a little defense and special teams in there as well. They just went into Iraq with a bully attitude, with no thought on what to do after Saddam was done. Now the whole thing is a mess and I think it's time we get a new administration to try to undo this fiasco. I personally cannot see how anyone thinks he's a good president, unless you're in the oil industry. He's a puppet, an idiot, and the laughingstock of the rest of the world.
This was the greatest post ever my friends will get a kick out of it. I am not a republican. I am a Libertarian but Michael Badnarik has essentially no chance in hell of being elected so I will probably vote for bush. IMO John Kerry are worthless. I just agree with a few more of Bush's policies then Then John Kerry.[b said:Quote[/b] (ZAK @ Oct. 01 2004,8:34)]NO FLIP-FLOP?
Heres a good example of kerrys plan. No matter what you think about anything Kerry agrees with you
kerry DID debate better than bush. he was calm and cool... bush looked annoyed many times, didn't know what to say some times, etc...
just think about this... when talking w/ the leaders of other countries, what would you rather have... a nervous-looking, unprepared (he hadn't had mock debates...), gets annoyed easily, etc... or a cool headed, well prepared president that doesn't snow he's annoyed?? it could mean the difference between war and an agreement.
as for the flip-flop thing, I don't see why it's such a big deal. Both of them flip-flop. I agree with finch.
I think in the ads and stuff, bush has lied more about kerry than kerry about bush.
Kerry also admits his mistakes. Bush is stubborn...
kerry would be a better president.
just think about this... when talking w/ the leaders of other countries, what would you rather have... a nervous-looking, unprepared (he hadn't had mock debates...), gets annoyed easily, etc... or a cool headed, well prepared president that doesn't snow he's annoyed?? it could mean the difference between war and an agreement.
as for the flip-flop thing, I don't see why it's such a big deal. Both of them flip-flop. I agree with finch.
I think in the ads and stuff, bush has lied more about kerry than kerry about bush.
Kerry also admits his mistakes. Bush is stubborn...
kerry would be a better president.
Kerry is clearly the more mature and intelligent individual. I'm not a big fan of the way he wants to play to the middle, but the "flip-flopping" charge is just childish. He explained his position clearly and coherently, to which Bush just childishly repeated the charge.
I don't like Kerry. He's part of "the machine" of politics. But for the life of me, I can't understand supporting Bush. FYI, the Iraq war is a disaster. The economy languishes, and the environment is spoiled. What's there to like?
Capslock <-- blames self-serving two-party system.
I don't like Kerry. He's part of "the machine" of politics. But for the life of me, I can't understand supporting Bush. FYI, the Iraq war is a disaster. The economy languishes, and the environment is spoiled. What's there to like?
Capslock <-- blames self-serving two-party system.
superimposedhope
Somewhat Unstable
Why did Kerry vote against the original Gulf War lead by Bush Sr. who did have all the backing and help that Mr. Kerry says we need now and that he would do if elected? Not to mention that Mr. Kerry talks about he would get Germany and France, etc... in on this with the right kind of diplomacy, those nations have already flatly said they will not back Kerry either and furthermore have absolutely NO intentions of helping in this war by sending troops of any kind.
Jim Lehrer ughhhhh........he showed his biase like a red flag. Where were the questions about Kerry's voting habits, about him protesting HIS war (vietnam) while his band of brothers were still fighting, further calling them war criminals and monsters? Why did he meet with enemy leaders in Paris? Jim Lehrer was known as "Our Moderator" by the Clinton administration because of his democratic biase.
I still think Bush won it, and will be elected president again. I don't like everything about Bush but "GOD HELP US ALL" if Kerry is elected. I think the international bullies will pummel us if he is elected. I just don't feel he is strong enough to be the world leader (U.S. is the most powerful thus making us the world leader) Bilateral talks will only alienate China and China is like a big brother to N. Korea and I think they want to resolve peacefully befor allowing an outside force to intervene. If China is put off then they just may become an enemy and though we are the most powerfull, China is close for military strength.
Just my view
Joe
Jim Lehrer ughhhhh........he showed his biase like a red flag. Where were the questions about Kerry's voting habits, about him protesting HIS war (vietnam) while his band of brothers were still fighting, further calling them war criminals and monsters? Why did he meet with enemy leaders in Paris? Jim Lehrer was known as "Our Moderator" by the Clinton administration because of his democratic biase.
I still think Bush won it, and will be elected president again. I don't like everything about Bush but "GOD HELP US ALL" if Kerry is elected. I think the international bullies will pummel us if he is elected. I just don't feel he is strong enough to be the world leader (U.S. is the most powerful thus making us the world leader) Bilateral talks will only alienate China and China is like a big brother to N. Korea and I think they want to resolve peacefully befor allowing an outside force to intervene. If China is put off then they just may become an enemy and though we are the most powerfull, China is close for military strength.
Just my view
Joe
superimposedhope
Somewhat Unstable
China wants the US to have bilateral talks with North Korea.
You know, a little fact-checking goes a long way. Never believe what either campaign camp says; research it for yourself. We have entered the arena of full-contact spin.
To some extent, the campaign is the WORST place to evaluate candidates. Every move and statement are masaged and manufactured by consultants, focus groups, and "handlers." It's good to see the candidates actually answering questions, but nobody should take anything at face value.
Oh, and by the way, Michael Moore is the most successful documentary filmmaker in history, and an academy award winner. Them's the facts.
Capslock
You know, a little fact-checking goes a long way. Never believe what either campaign camp says; research it for yourself. We have entered the arena of full-contact spin.
To some extent, the campaign is the WORST place to evaluate candidates. Every move and statement are masaged and manufactured by consultants, focus groups, and "handlers." It's good to see the candidates actually answering questions, but nobody should take anything at face value.
Oh, and by the way, Michael Moore is the most successful documentary filmmaker in history, and an academy award winner. Them's the facts.
Capslock
superimposedhope
Somewhat Unstable
I have not read anything about China wanting bilateral talks and have not spoken with China myself sooo.......that may be true. As for Moore Academy awards are entertainment as well. I personally feel he is preaching to the choir, the people who enjoy his "truth" are people who already felt that way and were already using his "facts" for their own debates such as this one. His documentaries are opinions with a mental picture to paperclip to your thoughts.
Back to Bush vs. Kerry
I am interested to see the next debate. Does anyone know who is moderating the next one?
Joe
Back to Bush vs. Kerry
I am interested to see the next debate. Does anyone know who is moderating the next one?
Joe
Let me first say I do not agree with Bush's immagration stance, or his educational reform. I probably would not agree with his environmental stand point if I weren't looking at a broader picture. I am in environmental affairs at a moderate sized chemical plant near Galveston, TX. I know a little about environmental matters. What the heck can Bush do about WORLD ENVIRONMENT?! The Environmental restrictions on basicaly EVERYTHING in the US is tighter than the majority of the world. And it's putting people out of JOBs and companies out of Buissness. The Disposal cost of one of the waste streams I deal with is around $20,000. Do you know what it would cost in most Asian countries? nothing! They don't seem to mind dumping the crap in the ocean. As a US chemical supplier we simply cannot compete with companies who take their corperations else where because disposal cost and employee pay is lower. Contries considered "developing" have no environmental regulations at all. Ok so lets say we do away with chemical plants all together. Kiss you're cars good buy, kiss you're clothes goodbye(unless you wear strictly cotton, or hemp) Unless you're house is made of Adobe brick and dirt floors kiss them good buy. It floors me how people can lamblast the "evil" they support for the sake of comfort.[b said:
Do I believe the environment should be protected? ABSOLUTLY! Does it kill me so see wetland, and marine life exterminated YOU BET. Do I enjoy my lifestyle? DO YOU? People seem awfully quick to point their fingers at America, forgetting the whole time that they themself have blood on that finger. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, who enjoy most modern comforts. If we don't use chemicals we use plants and animals (PETA just loves me) if we don't use plants and animals we go naked( fine by me I've got a natural sweater anyways) If Tamlin wants to do his part for CPs he's accused of depleting the world' supply of peat. If he doesn't use peat the quality, and quantity of his plants decline. For heavans sake pick you're poisons people.
Mike you know this world wasn't designed to last forever, and while I know beyond a doubt it's important to protect the environment (that is my job after all) I think America is pretty well over extended in MOST areas. I do think we could be smarter in how we use land, but now we've lost JOBs and HOMES. This whole World environment is tied together and from what little I understand the US is doing MUCH more than most. I will cast my vote for Bush, and will continue to do what I can for CPs and the environment short of killing myself (literally) with kindness to the environment.
PlantAKiss
Moderator Schmoderator Fluorescent fluorite, Engl
Quite frankly, I'd like a President who knows what the word "vociferous" means. Anyone catch that? Bush said our troops entered Iraq "vociferously." Sooo...our troops went in "offensively loud"?? Bush is not a bright man.
I thought Bush's answers were awkward, fumbling and repetitive. Anyone count how many times he said "Its hard work!"? At least 5 times. He "ummm"ed and "aah"ed, stumbled and paused many times as if he were searching for what to say. Kerry on the other hand was confident; he answered smoothly without any hesitation. Kerry was taking notes every time Bush spoke. Bush stood there like a lump when Kerry was speaking until I think he noticed that Kerry was taking notes then I saw him scribble a few times. (Probably just doodling on his pad.)
As far as flip flopping goes...I'd much rather cast my vote for someone who can see that he was in error, admit it and try to correct the mistake than to be someone who cannot admit he was wrong and continues to blunder along in this war like a bull in a china shop. Just LOOK at the news reports--everyone knows this war is turning into a disaster but Bush will NOT face that and admit. So under his Presidency, this will never be corrected. At least Kerry knows its not going well and something must be done to change it. He knows this war has seriously tarnished the US's world image.
I thought Kerry was by far the winner of that debate. IMHO, Bush looked like bumbling idiot.
I thought Bush's answers were awkward, fumbling and repetitive. Anyone count how many times he said "Its hard work!"? At least 5 times. He "ummm"ed and "aah"ed, stumbled and paused many times as if he were searching for what to say. Kerry on the other hand was confident; he answered smoothly without any hesitation. Kerry was taking notes every time Bush spoke. Bush stood there like a lump when Kerry was speaking until I think he noticed that Kerry was taking notes then I saw him scribble a few times. (Probably just doodling on his pad.)
As far as flip flopping goes...I'd much rather cast my vote for someone who can see that he was in error, admit it and try to correct the mistake than to be someone who cannot admit he was wrong and continues to blunder along in this war like a bull in a china shop. Just LOOK at the news reports--everyone knows this war is turning into a disaster but Bush will NOT face that and admit. So under his Presidency, this will never be corrected. At least Kerry knows its not going well and something must be done to change it. He knows this war has seriously tarnished the US's world image.
I thought Kerry was by far the winner of that debate. IMHO, Bush looked like bumbling idiot.
Soooo glad to be out of the U.S. right now... I don't have to deal with the Neo-Con Zionist Supporters and Leftist Weaklings. I'll state this clearly and only once - I don't support any political school other than one that gives a rat's bum about the environment.
Remember, this post is to talk about the Debate's outcome, not what an idiot one or the other is, or anyone else, for that matter. I appreciate that we have a wide variety of people here, so let's not push it too far as to make separate forums for different political views eh? Keep in mind that we're all here mostly because we have taken a liking to carnivorous plants, so keep it that way.
In my honest opinion, any political and/or religious discussion should be banned from Terraforums. It leaves too many people upset.
Now, from what I've written, you may get the impression that I'm being irresponsible about what happens in the world and all that gibberish. Well honestly I don't believe in the whole "practice your rights" jazz. I don't think we, as human beings - the only animal that isn't humble (or maybe it's just the "civilised" world eh?) - even have the intelligence or rights to live the way we do.
My opinion, full stop.
Remember, this post is to talk about the Debate's outcome, not what an idiot one or the other is, or anyone else, for that matter. I appreciate that we have a wide variety of people here, so let's not push it too far as to make separate forums for different political views eh? Keep in mind that we're all here mostly because we have taken a liking to carnivorous plants, so keep it that way.
In my honest opinion, any political and/or religious discussion should be banned from Terraforums. It leaves too many people upset.
Now, from what I've written, you may get the impression that I'm being irresponsible about what happens in the world and all that gibberish. Well honestly I don't believe in the whole "practice your rights" jazz. I don't think we, as human beings - the only animal that isn't humble (or maybe it's just the "civilised" world eh?) - even have the intelligence or rights to live the way we do.
My opinion, full stop.
Zak,
>>Let me first say I do not agree with Bush's immagration stance, or his educational reform. I probably would not agree with his environmental stand point if I weren't looking at a broader picture. I am in environmental affairs at a moderate sized chemical plant near Galveston, TX. I know a little about environmental matters. What the heck can Bush do about WORLD ENVIRONMENT?!
Answer, by first signing upto the Kyoto protocol for a start and recognize there is a problem with global warming. The USA has 4% of the world's population and makes 25% of the world's carbon dioxide emisions...
>>The Environmental restrictions on basicaly EVERYTHING in the US is tighter than the majority of the world. And it's putting people out of JOBs and companies out of Buissness. The Disposal cost of one of the waste streams I deal with is around $20,000. Do you know what it would cost in most Asian countries? nothing! They don't seem to mind dumping the crap in the ocean. As a US chemical supplier we simply cannot compete with companies who take their corperations else where because disposal cost and employee pay is lower.
This is exactly the same problem in Europe, but we still signed up to the Kyoto protocol.
Contries considered "developing" have no environmental regulations at all. Ok so lets say we do away with chemical plants all together. Kiss you're cars good buy, kiss you're clothes goodbye(unless you wear strictly cotton, or hemp) Unless you're house is made of Adobe brick and dirt floors kiss them good buy. It floors me how people can lamblast the "evil" they support for the sake of comfort.
Do I believe the environment should be protected? ABSOLUTLY! Does it kill me so see wetland, and marine life exterminated YOU BET. Do I enjoy my lifestyle? DO YOU? People seem awfully quick to point their fingers at America, forgetting the whole time that they themself have blood on that finger. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, who enjoy most modern comforts. If we don't use chemicals we use plants and animals (PETA just loves me) if we don't use plants and animals we go naked( fine by me I've got a natural sweater anyways) If Tamlin wants to do his part for CPs he's accused of depleting the world' supply of peat. If he doesn't use peat the quality, and quantity of his plants decline. For heavans sake pick you're poisons people.
Sorry Zak, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree. In the USA, its an everyday sight to see SUVs and Hummers and cars that do less than 20 miles to the gallon. Here in the UK we pay 5 times as much for fuel as you do and of course on average our cars do more than twice the mileage per gallon..
>> Mike you know this world wasn't designed to last forever, and while I know beyond a doubt it's important to protect the environment (that is my job after all) I think America is pretty well over extended in MOST areas. I do think we could be smarter in how we use land, but now we've lost JOBs and HOMES. This whole World environment is tied together and from what little I understand the US is doing MUCH more than most. I will cast my vote for Bush, and will continue to do what I can for CPs and the environment short of killing myself (literally) with kindness to the environment.
Zak,
I think a vote for Bush would be an environmentally more damaging one. its well known he wants to promote anything with a link to oil.
Please check out this website.
http://www.bushgreenwatch.org/
>>Let me first say I do not agree with Bush's immagration stance, or his educational reform. I probably would not agree with his environmental stand point if I weren't looking at a broader picture. I am in environmental affairs at a moderate sized chemical plant near Galveston, TX. I know a little about environmental matters. What the heck can Bush do about WORLD ENVIRONMENT?!
Answer, by first signing upto the Kyoto protocol for a start and recognize there is a problem with global warming. The USA has 4% of the world's population and makes 25% of the world's carbon dioxide emisions...
>>The Environmental restrictions on basicaly EVERYTHING in the US is tighter than the majority of the world. And it's putting people out of JOBs and companies out of Buissness. The Disposal cost of one of the waste streams I deal with is around $20,000. Do you know what it would cost in most Asian countries? nothing! They don't seem to mind dumping the crap in the ocean. As a US chemical supplier we simply cannot compete with companies who take their corperations else where because disposal cost and employee pay is lower.
This is exactly the same problem in Europe, but we still signed up to the Kyoto protocol.
Contries considered "developing" have no environmental regulations at all. Ok so lets say we do away with chemical plants all together. Kiss you're cars good buy, kiss you're clothes goodbye(unless you wear strictly cotton, or hemp) Unless you're house is made of Adobe brick and dirt floors kiss them good buy. It floors me how people can lamblast the "evil" they support for the sake of comfort.
Do I believe the environment should be protected? ABSOLUTLY! Does it kill me so see wetland, and marine life exterminated YOU BET. Do I enjoy my lifestyle? DO YOU? People seem awfully quick to point their fingers at America, forgetting the whole time that they themself have blood on that finger. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, who enjoy most modern comforts. If we don't use chemicals we use plants and animals (PETA just loves me) if we don't use plants and animals we go naked( fine by me I've got a natural sweater anyways) If Tamlin wants to do his part for CPs he's accused of depleting the world' supply of peat. If he doesn't use peat the quality, and quantity of his plants decline. For heavans sake pick you're poisons people.
Sorry Zak, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree. In the USA, its an everyday sight to see SUVs and Hummers and cars that do less than 20 miles to the gallon. Here in the UK we pay 5 times as much for fuel as you do and of course on average our cars do more than twice the mileage per gallon..
>> Mike you know this world wasn't designed to last forever, and while I know beyond a doubt it's important to protect the environment (that is my job after all) I think America is pretty well over extended in MOST areas. I do think we could be smarter in how we use land, but now we've lost JOBs and HOMES. This whole World environment is tied together and from what little I understand the US is doing MUCH more than most. I will cast my vote for Bush, and will continue to do what I can for CPs and the environment short of killing myself (literally) with kindness to the environment.
Zak,
I think a vote for Bush would be an environmentally more damaging one. its well known he wants to promote anything with a link to oil.
Please check out this website.
http://www.bushgreenwatch.org/
Did anyone watch the debate on CSPAN? I think they were the only ones to have a split screen with BOTH candidates on continuously for the WHOLE 90 minutes. It was more fascinating to watch their reactions to what the other candidate was saying than watching their rehearsed monologues.
Early on, Bush looked nervous and made faces, while Kerry looked attentive and made lots of notes (may have been doodling for all I know). A lady called in later and said that Kerry took one drink of water and Bush took three.
I wish all the stations would have carried both candidates simultaneously like that. It gave us a little more insight into each's personality...
Early on, Bush looked nervous and made faces, while Kerry looked attentive and made lots of notes (may have been doodling for all I know). A lady called in later and said that Kerry took one drink of water and Bush took three.
I wish all the stations would have carried both candidates simultaneously like that. It gave us a little more insight into each's personality...
