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Thread: The hole in the ozone!

  1. #33

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    OMG not another 30 page thread! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif[/img] I dont really have time for this, I have a 10000 word poem thing to memorize in a week! So this is what im posting and THATS IT: ( [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_m_32.gif[/img] )

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (The "Ozone hole" Controversy @ Chapter 2, page 28 in science textbook; ISBN=?)]

    in the late 1980s, a few scientists and environmentalists announced the discovery of a "hole" in the ozone layer over the south pole. the environmentalists claimed that it was caused by a worldwide depletion of the ozone layer and predicted drastic increases in UV radiation. they blamed the depletion on man made chemicals called chlorofluorocarbons [CFS's] such as the well known refrigerants called freons and the fire extinguishing gases known as halons. according to the environmentalists, CFS's that escape into the atmosphere drift up into the ozone layer, where they are broken down sunlight into chlorine and other compounds. Certain forms of chlorine can change 2 molecules of O3 into 3 molecules of O2, resulting in a decrease in ozone and an increase in oxygen. Environmentalists called for a worldwide ban on CFC's, warning that millions of people would die if drastic actions were not taken.

    in response to their outcry, world leaders, including British prime minister Margaret thatcher and president George bush, hastily signed the Montreal-London protocol, which called for the elimination of all CFC production by the year 2000 (2010 for third world nations)

    . In 1992 president bush announced that CFC production in the US would be halted in 1995, 5 years ahead of schedule.

    Unfortunately, there is yet no good substitute for these chemicals; proposed replacements are either toxic, flammable, or extremely expensive. The cost of converting from CFC's to replacements may reach $5 trillion worldwide many developing nations may not be able to afford the cost of conversion, but without refrigeration, food poisoning and starvation could claim millions of lives in those countries.

    The ozone hole is actually a thinning of the ozone layer rather than a hole and appears to be a natural phenomenon.

    Was the supposed threat of ozone depletion worth the cost of outlawing CFC's? the environmentalists say that it was, but what they did NOT say casts much doubt on the truth of CFC related ozone depletion.

    The hole was first discovered in 1956, before CFC's came into widespread use. The scientist who first discovered the hole, dr. Gordon dobson, concluded that it was a natural phenomenon that appeared annually near the end of winter, lasted three to five weeks, and then vanished suddenly with the onset of spring.

    The hole is confined to Antarctica. scientists who studied the hole in the 1950s concluded that it is caused by an Antarctic high altitude weather phenomenon called the polar vortex, noting that the hole appears and disappears with the vortex,. the north polar region, which lacks the vortex, has never developed an ozone "hole"

    The hole is not a hole. The ozone hole is actually a thinning of the ozone layer rather than an actual hole. the lowest ozone concentration ever recorded in the hole was about 30% of the normal level, but levels this low are rare. Even when ozone levels are reduced, UVC absorption by O2 molecules (producing ozone) continues unabated.

    Worldwide ozone levels are actually INCREASING as you read this. average ozone levels are higher right now then they were in 1962, even though CFC production reached a maximum in 1974. average ozone concentrations have been rising about 0.30% per year since 1986. measurements taken by the national cancer institute showed that between 1974 and 1985, the amount of UVB radiation penetrating the ozone layer declined by about 0.7% each year! a European study indicated a decrease of up to 0.9% in UV radiation reaching the surface between 1968 and 1982.

    Man's production of chlorine containing compounds is insignificant compared to nature's. If every molecule of CFCs produced by man drifted up into the atmosphere and released its chlorine, man would have added about 750,000 tons of chlorine to the atmosphere during the peak year of CFC production. The oceans ALONE put 600 MILLION tons of chlorine (from sea salt) into the atmosphere every year, and volcanoes have been known to contribute over 200 million tons in a SINGLE ERUPTION (Mount Tambora) Even nonviolent volcanoes such as Mount Erebus in Antarctica, contribute to the total; Erebus has been pumping over 360,000 tons of chlorine into the atmosphere every single year since 1972. Other natural sources of atmospheric chlorine contribute an additional 13.4 million tons annually.

    Nature contributes far mote chlorine to the atmosphere than man does.

    The worst case ozone depletion scenarios of the environmentalists are insignificant compared to daily variations due to changes in the weather, solar activity, and latitude. Variations in solar UV output and the changing seasons of the year strongly effect ozone levels. ozone concentrations in portions of the ozone layer can fluctuate weekly by 40%, but this does not endanger life on the earths surface. Ozone levels also fluctuate year by year; by 20-40%, and ultraviolet exposure increases 50% for every 250 miles you move closer to the equator. The "global disaster" that environmentalists predicted was a decrease in average ozone levels BY LESS THAN 10% OVER THE NEXT 100 YEARS.

    The Montreal-London protocol seems to have been based on hysteria, faulty science, and hasty conclusions. Unfortunately, we are now stuck with its consequences, but we can learn from its example. We are responsible to be good stewards of the planet God has given us, and being good stewards means taking care of our environment however, our decisions should BE BASED not ON PANIC AND HASTY JUDGMENT, but on SOUND SCIENCE AND COMMON SENSE.

    Atmospheric Sources of Clorine* (millions of tons per year)

    Oceanic Evaporation : 600.0
    Volcanoes : 36.0
    Burning of organic substances : 8.4
    Plankton : 5.0
    Total Natural Sources : 649.4

    Chlorine in man made CFC's : 0.75

    Chlorine theoretically released by the alleged breakup of man made CFC's : 0.0075

    *Adapted from Rogelio A. Maduro and Ralf Schauerhammer, "The Holes in the Ozone Scare" (Washington D.C.: 21st Century Science Associates), 12.

  2. #34
    rattler's Avatar
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    no offence BUT there are cycles of extinction. MANY times has over 50% of known species been wiped off the face of the earth, maybe your not seeing the "big picture" have you ever stopped to think that we may be the most recent asteroid, mega virus, greenhouse effect, ice age, ect ect ect that is going to cause the next great extinction?? we have only been on this planet for a blink of an eye and chances are we will be gone in another blink or two, the rearth will keep spinning and critters will keep evolving. you know what the most true quote i have ever heard was? i forget the exact words but here is the jist of it: "Did you ever stop to wonder why we are here, why mother nature let us evolve? i think she wanted styrofome and couldnt make it her self so she let us go and do our thing, we made the styrofome and now shes prolly going to give us the boot out of here cause she doesnt need us anymore."

    to think that we can screw up the world to the point that it cant be saved is giving us to much credit. we can screw it up to the point where WE cant be saved and the planet will shake us of like the 24 hour flu and go on about its buisness.

    Rattler
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  3. #35
    Stay chooned in for more! Clint's Avatar
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    it's kind of like that movie "epoch", or that's what you reminded me of anyway

  4. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]and then vanished suddenly with the onset of spring.
    this one hasn't vanished.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Worldwide ozone levels are actually INCREASING as you read this. average ozone levels are higher right now then they were in 1962, even though CFC production reached a maximum in 1974. average ozone concentrations have been rising about 0.30% per year since 1986.
    yes, it may be rising, in the TROPOSPHERE. it is disappearing in the stratosphere. it's no secret that ozone pollution is happening. that's what traps heat and makes cities so much hotter than they're supposed to be. it's not just that there's more-less O3 (ozone) but WHERE it is.
    sure, there may be more O3, but that's in the troposphere, where its bad. where it's good, it's being depleated. (and no, O3 from the troposphere doesn't float up to the stratosphere... by the time it reaches the stratosphere, it has been changed and is no longer useful)

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Man's production of chlorine containing compounds is insignificant compared to nature's. If every molecule of CFCs produced by man drifted up into the atmosphere and released its chlorine, man would have added about 750,000 tons of chlorine to the atmosphere during the peak year of CFC production
    clorine? weren't we talking about CFC's? sure, CFC's have chlorine, but they also have flouride and carbon (is that what they stand for? the point is that it's not just chlorine)
    CFC's are man-made chemicals. not from nature. and like I said before a sincle CFC molecule can destroy MANY O3 molecules.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The worst case ozone depletion scenarios of the environmentalists are insignificant compared to daily variations due to changes in the weather, solar activity, and latitude. Variations in solar UV output and the changing seasons of the year strongly effect ozone levels. ozone concentrations in portions of the ozone layer can fluctuate weekly by 40%, but this does not endanger life on the earths surface.
    once again, look at the BIG picture!!! yes, it does change from time to time... sometimes it's LESS and sometimes its more. the point is that in average, it's MORE (the ozone depletion). many small changes that last a few days/months doesn't do anything bad... it's prolonged exposure to more UV rays that melts ice caps and causes skin cancer.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The "global disaster" that environmentalists predicted was a decrease in average ozone levels BY LESS THAN 10% OVER THE NEXT 100 YEARS.
    I believe that has increased
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]We are responsible to be good stewards of the planet God has given us
    there... I lost all respect for it. didn't you say it came from a textbook? what kind of SCIENTIFIC textbook talks about religion
    talk about textbooks being crap!
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Atmospheric Sources of Clorine* (millions of tons per year)

    Oceanic Evaporation : 600.0
    Volcanoes : 36.0
    Burning of organic substances : 8.4
    Plankton : 5.0
    Total Natural Sources : 649.4

    Chlorine in man made CFC's : 0.75
    once again, it's not chlorine...it's CFC's that do all the nasty work.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]seems to have been based on hysteria, faulty science
    yeah... I say that applies to your quote... falty science.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
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  5. #37

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    You dont know what your talking about. CFC's MAKE the chlorine which break down ozone... CFCS THEMSELVES DONT DO IT! you are being ignorant and not reading my reply thoroughly... and i would like to know where you are getting this info... because all of that are lies pretty much

    how do you know its in the troposphere? give me YOUR sources.

  6. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]no offence BUT there are cycles of extinction
    yes, but many scientists agree we're causing the greatest extinction in history... so just because it's happened before we should do it again?
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]"Did you ever stop to wonder why we are here, why mother nature let us evolve? i think she wanted styrofome and couldnt make it her self so she let us go and do our thing, we made the styrofome and now shes prolly going to give us the boot out of here cause she doesnt need us anymore."
    I don't believe nature is an entity. nature is an idea created by humans... it doesn't think (as a whole that is) or anything.
    and if you believe in evolution, you should agree with me... there's no previous plan on how things will evolve. it's just a spontaneous thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] we can screw it up to the point where WE cant be saved and the planet will shake us of like the 24 hour flu and go on about its buisness.
    ok... let's all kill ourselves.
    NOT!
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
    A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it
    Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything

  7. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]CFC's MAKE the chlorine which break down ozone
    they don't make chlorine! they're made up of chlorine.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]you are being ignorant and not reading my reply thoroughly
    nobody's perfect. you aren't answering my questions.
    http://www.policyalmanac.org/environ...ve/ozone.shtml
    now, if you'll excuse me... I have to go because there's a thunderstorm and I don't want the computer to explode.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
    A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it
    Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything

  8. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Oct. 14 2004,5:06)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]CFC's MAKE the chlorine which break down ozone
    they don't make chlorine! they're made up of chlorine.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]you are being ignorant and not reading my reply thoroughly
    nobody's perfect. you aren't answering my questions.
    http://www.policyalmanac.org/environ...ve/ozone.shtml
    now, if you'll excuse me... I have to go because there's a thunderstorm and I don't want the computer to explode.
    CFC'S, when in the ozone layer, when exposed to the sun, break down INTO chlorine, which in turn breaks down the ozone...

    That is EXACTLY my point. And you have no questions. You have just proven wrong every single thing you said about my quote. And I have now lost all respect to you due to your quite rude remarks reguarding my textbook which has God mentioned in it, you saying how any textbook with religion in it is pure bullcrap. Well everything in my quite is SCIENTIFIC DATA PROVEN RIGHT BY SCIENTISTS. Interesting how you contradict so much to make yourself seem right

    You say one thing, then you go proving yourself wrong again with contradictory replies. just like in the squirrel topic.

    -Spec

    PS: the floride and carbon isnt what breaks down the O3... its the CHLORINE... Chlorine is the chemical most present in the stratosphere which breaks down ozone.

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