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The hole in the ozone!

  • #21
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Capslock @ Oct. 13 2004,2:31)]Um, I disagree, spec. The ozone hole lets in harmful rays that, among other things, increases the incidence of skin cancer. Austrailia, which is located near the ozone hole, has the highest levels of skin cancer in the world.

No, the ozone hole isn't the end of the world, but it IS something to worry about.

Capslock
But then again that could be because it's a bunch of white people living in a desert near the equator so regardless of whether or not there is a hole there letting in harmful UV rays your still going to have more sunburn then other parts of the world which lead to more skin cancer.
 
  • #22
oh yeah?
well...
cows are the number producer of methane gas...
so blame the cow farts!!
 
  • #23
From what I have heard and read about the ozone layer over the past few hundred years, it actually expands and contracts making the hole bigger or smaller. Using core samples, scientists have been able to determine that the size of the hold changes over periods of time, expanding or shrinking. However, todays industries have made an impact on the size of that hole.
 
  • #24
Also if sea levels rise so what? Sea levels risee and fall everytime. Almost everytime there is a transgression there is also an explosion of life forms as the sea is larger with more space for critters. But yeah if the temperature rises for the next few thousand years or falls it's no big deal because in the history of the earth it really isn't that abnormal. <- I learned all that from my Geology class in college. Wow that stuff can come in handy...
 
  • #25
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Oh for the love of god... cant you ever agree with me? please?
not if you're wrong ;)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What man contributes to pollution and global warming and all that stuff is less than .1% of what nature contributes
again... what the heck do you mean by that? I don't care how long you spend typing LOL (ain't I nice?)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And the ozone hole hardly contributes a thing to global warming
then what does? the ozone depletion problem allows UV rays to come through which warm us (that's what burns us if we're in the sun too long)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And to tell you the truth, coral loves UV light
they like the current levels of UV. not more. they're very fragile. when you have more UV light that WARMS UP THE WATER (it's not just that there's UV light... it's what brings with it) and causes coral bleaching.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]average temperatures fluctuate from century to century
that's not the point.
you need to look at the BIG picture. GLOBAL climate. sure, there'll always be a hole in the ozone layer somewhere or other, and climate will change over milenia, but that's not the point. it's how fast those changes are ocurring... and WHY.
 
  • #26
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]UHM.... and where does coal come from? PLANTS! that means that that same material was in the atmosphere at SOME time...
What humans burn is nothing compared to the damage wildfires cause every year
Also if sea levels rise so what? Sea levels risee and fall everytime.
you keep missing the big picture!!!
like finch said, yes, the carbon WAS in the atmosphere at some time or another, but not all at the same time!
and many wildfires are CAUSED BY humans! and yes, there are natural wildfires but like in CA, where they don't allow things to go naturally, humans have made wildfires WORSE.
and yes, the sea level rises and falls periodically but not so fast!
you also said (aim) that you got all your facts from the textbook... well, you said that textbooks were crap (in the evolution.. i mean war on squirrels :p thread). and then you said that textbooks on evolution were crap but not on ozone/global warming... well that makes sense.
you were also nagging people that they didn't answer all questions? well, why don't you answer my question?
give me websites about your "facts"! (good, scientific ones... not some extremist group website or something)
and you said that most of what they say about evolution was proved wrong... well, give me examples!
 
  • #27
spec, corals aren't adaptable like we are. they are extremely fragile and if their zooxanthelae (spelling?) algea dies, THEY die! this includes giant clams and sea anemones.

don't tell me that nature contributes to global warming. people are chopping down forests like they'r going out of style (where , they are!). the loss of millions of acres of (rain) forests provides no where for the greenhouse gasses to go (like the carbon dioxide that humans exhale!) so it eats away at the ozone.

i can't wait untill you get out there are find out what things are really like.
 
  • #28
oh yeah and for the record i answered everything AFAIK to the squirrel thread.
 
  • #29
you know you guys for the last couple hundred thousand years this planet has been yo-yoing in and out of ice ages. right now we are on a temperature up-wing, in fact we are in enough of an up swing that one European country(i forget which but i heard it on the news yesterday) is laying claim to mineral rights in the arctic circle because they are hedging their bets that the ice is going to melt enough to make oil drilling profitable cause the ice is going to be thinner. given current thinking and regulations its going to be hard for us to "wipe out" the planet. while ppl are living longer birth rates are dropping off, how often do you hear of a family with 12 kids anymore? my dad is one of 12, my mom is one of 7, not unusual 40-50 years ago but to day being that im one of 4 im consdered to be in a large family in a first world nation. gas prices are making ppl look seriously at electric/hydrogen powered cars for the first time. law suits are forcing big mining operations and such to behave them selves. while you read alot about the "disappearing" rain forest, the fact is they arent telling you that the forest is taking over areas previously cut down at a faster rate than they are being cut down over the last few years. so the worlds rain forests are actually growing now. granted we have lost and will continue to loose species remember no species(except maybe the cockroach :p ) will last forever including us. new species will evolve and are continuing to evolve.

more than anything im worried about "global virus's" you can be any where in the world in about 24 hours, that is going to lead to some serious spreading of bad "bugs". our drugs are nothing like penicilin was. virus's and bacteria are evolving faster than drug companies can keep up.

thats my rant for today.
smile_m_32.gif


Rattler
 
  • #30
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]no where for the greenhouse gasses to go (like the carbon dioxide that humans exhale!) so it eats away at the ozone
eeehhh... those are CFC's.. One molecule of CFC has the ability to destroy 100,000 molecules of ozone.
I don't think CO2 or methane or other greenhouse gases (BIG picture... there are MANY greenhouse gases and you can't just look at one thing)
and while the MOST dangerous CFC's have been banned in some countries, they still produce and use less dangerous CFC's (not that they don't destroy O3... as much as I hate to say it, my own fridge uses CFC's. it has a warning label on the side of the freezer door)
and spec, look at that chart. you can see that while the CO2 increase hasn't been that dramatic, methane has.
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Library/GlobalWarming/warming4.html
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]while you read alot about the "disappearing" rain forest, the fact is they arent telling you that the forest is taking over areas previously cut down at a faster rate than they are being cut down over the last few years. so the worlds rain forests are actually growing now.
no... they're NOT growing. The rate of cutting/burning down is MUCH faster than the rate at which they're growing back. once again, someone is missing the big picture. just because a little tiny portion of rainforest is growing back, that doesn't mean that rainforests are growing now!!!!
 
  • #31
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]new species will evolve and are continuing to evolve.
but they're being killed off MUCH faster than they can evolve!

how many times do I have to say that it's not as simple as that?

now, I don't know if this is true, but the point is that MANY MANY MANY species are going extinct every DAY!

There is no way of knowing if any of the 100 species of plants that go extinct every day hid similar miracles. http://www.animaland.org/asp/realissues/endangered5.asp

Our species, Homo sapiens, blatantly caused approximately 578 species of the web of life to go extinct. This extinction rate equals one species of life going extinct every 2 minutes and 30 seconds. Millions of people are at work legally day and night, quickly destroying the richest place there is for life on Earth, the Rainforests. For every legal worker there are perhaps as many as 5 illegal workers destroying the Rainforests
http://www.september112001.net/

hundreds of footballfields of the AMAZON are being cut down every single day. now... you can't possibly tell me that the rainforest is growing faster than that!
 
  • #32
co2 is a greenhouse gas, not the only one. i was using that as an example because in my opinion, it's easier for most people to relate to.


my inhaler has produces cfc's/has cfc's in it
smile_k_ani_32.gif
 
  • #33
OMG not another 30 page thread!
laugh.gif
I dont really have time for this, I have a 10000 word poem thing to memorize in a week! So this is what im posting and THATS IT: (
smile_m_32.gif
)

[b said:
Quote[/b] (The "Ozone hole" Controversy @ Chapter 2, page 28 in science textbook; ISBN=?)]

in the late 1980s, a few scientists and environmentalists announced the discovery of a "hole" in the ozone layer over the south pole. the environmentalists claimed that it was caused by a worldwide depletion of the ozone layer and predicted drastic increases in UV radiation. they blamed the depletion on man made chemicals called chlorofluorocarbons [CFS's] such as the well known refrigerants called freons and the fire extinguishing gases known as halons. according to the environmentalists, CFS's that escape into the atmosphere drift up into the ozone layer, where they are broken down sunlight into chlorine and other compounds. Certain forms of chlorine can change 2 molecules of O3 into 3 molecules of O2, resulting in a decrease in ozone and an increase in oxygen. Environmentalists called for a worldwide ban on CFC's, warning that millions of people would die if drastic actions were not taken.

    in response to their outcry, world leaders, including British prime minister Margaret thatcher and president George bush, hastily signed the Montreal-London protocol, which called for the elimination of all CFC production by the year 2000 (2010 for third world nations)

. In 1992 president bush announced that CFC production in the US would be halted in 1995, 5 years ahead of schedule.

    Unfortunately, there is yet no good substitute for these chemicals; proposed replacements are either toxic, flammable, or extremely expensive. The cost of converting from CFC's to replacements may reach $5 trillion worldwide many developing nations may not be able to afford the cost of conversion, but without refrigeration, food poisoning and starvation could claim millions of lives in those countries.

The ozone hole is actually a thinning of the ozone layer rather than a hole and appears to be a natural phenomenon.

    Was the supposed threat of ozone depletion worth the cost of outlawing CFC's? the environmentalists say that it was, but what they did NOT say casts much doubt on the truth of CFC related ozone depletion.

    The hole was first discovered in 1956, before CFC's came into widespread use. The scientist who first discovered the hole, dr. Gordon dobson, concluded that it was a natural phenomenon that appeared annually near the end of winter, lasted three to five weeks, and then vanished suddenly with the onset of spring.

    The hole is confined to Antarctica. scientists who studied the hole in the 1950s concluded that it is caused by an Antarctic high altitude weather phenomenon called the polar vortex, noting that the hole appears and disappears with the vortex,. the north polar region, which lacks the vortex, has never developed an ozone "hole"

    The hole is not a hole. The ozone hole is actually a thinning of the ozone layer rather than an actual hole. the lowest ozone concentration ever recorded in the hole was about 30% of the normal level, but levels this low are rare. Even when ozone levels are reduced, UVC absorption by O2 molecules (producing ozone) continues unabated.

    Worldwide ozone levels are actually INCREASING as you read this. average ozone levels are higher right now then they were in 1962, even though CFC production reached a maximum in 1974. average ozone concentrations have been rising about 0.30% per year since 1986. measurements taken by the national cancer institute showed that between 1974 and 1985, the amount of UVB radiation penetrating the ozone layer declined by about 0.7% each year! a European study indicated a decrease of up to 0.9% in UV radiation reaching the surface between 1968 and 1982.

    Man's production of chlorine containing compounds is insignificant compared to nature's. If every molecule of CFCs produced by man drifted up into the atmosphere and released its chlorine, man would have added about 750,000 tons of chlorine to the atmosphere during the peak year of CFC production. The oceans ALONE put 600 MILLION tons of chlorine (from sea salt) into the atmosphere every year, and volcanoes have been known to contribute over 200 million tons in a SINGLE ERUPTION (Mount Tambora) Even nonviolent volcanoes such as Mount Erebus in Antarctica, contribute to the total; Erebus has been pumping over 360,000 tons of chlorine into the atmosphere every single year since 1972. Other natural sources of atmospheric chlorine contribute an additional 13.4 million tons annually.

    Nature contributes far mote chlorine to the atmosphere than man does.

    The worst case ozone depletion scenarios of the environmentalists are insignificant compared to daily variations due to changes in the weather, solar activity, and latitude. Variations in solar UV output and the changing seasons of the year strongly effect ozone levels. ozone concentrations in portions of the ozone layer can fluctuate weekly by 40%, but this does not endanger life on the earths surface. Ozone levels also fluctuate year by year; by 20-40%, and ultraviolet exposure increases 50% for every 250 miles you move closer to the equator. The "global disaster" that environmentalists predicted was a decrease in average ozone levels BY LESS THAN 10% OVER THE NEXT 100 YEARS.

    The Montreal-London protocol seems to have been based on hysteria, faulty science, and hasty conclusions. Unfortunately, we are now stuck with its consequences, but we can learn from its example. We are responsible to be good stewards of the planet God has given us, and being good stewards means taking care of our environment however, our decisions should BE BASED not ON PANIC AND HASTY JUDGMENT, but on SOUND SCIENCE AND COMMON SENSE.

Atmospheric Sources of Clorine* (millions of tons per year)

Oceanic Evaporation              : 600.0
Volcanoes                            : 36.0
Burning of organic substances : 8.4
Plankton                              :  5.0
Total Natural Sources             : 649.4

Chlorine in man made CFC's   : 0.75

Chlorine theoretically released by the alleged breakup of man made CFC's : 0.0075

*Adapted from Rogelio A. Maduro and Ralf Schauerhammer, "The Holes in the Ozone Scare" (Washington D.C.: 21st Century Science Associates), 12.
 
  • #34
no offence BUT there are cycles of extinction. MANY times has over 50% of known species been wiped off the face of the earth, maybe your not seeing the "big picture" have you ever stopped to think that we may be the most recent asteroid, mega virus, greenhouse effect, ice age, ect ect ect that is going to cause the next great extinction?? we have only been on this planet for a blink of an eye and chances are we will be gone in another blink or two, the rearth will keep spinning and critters will keep evolving. you know what the most true quote i have ever heard was? i forget the exact words but here is the jist of it: "Did you ever stop to wonder why we are here, why mother nature let us evolve? i think she wanted styrofome and couldnt make it her self so she let us go and do our thing, we made the styrofome and now shes prolly going to give us the boot out of here cause she doesnt need us anymore."

to think that we can screw up the world to the point that it cant be saved is giving us to much credit. we can screw it up to the point where WE cant be saved and the planet will shake us of like the 24 hour flu and go on about its buisness.

Rattler
 
  • #35
it's kind of like that movie "epoch", or that's what you reminded me of anyway
 
  • #36
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]and then vanished suddenly with the onset of spring.
this one hasn't vanished.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Worldwide ozone levels are actually INCREASING as you read this. average ozone levels are higher right now then they were in 1962, even though CFC production reached a maximum in 1974. average ozone concentrations have been rising about 0.30% per year since 1986.
yes, it may be rising, in the TROPOSPHERE. it is disappearing in the stratosphere. it's no secret that ozone pollution is happening. that's what traps heat and makes cities so much hotter than they're supposed to be. it's not just that there's more-less O3 (ozone) but WHERE it is.
sure, there may be more O3, but that's in the troposphere, where its bad. where it's good, it's being depleated. (and no, O3 from the troposphere doesn't float up to the stratosphere... by the time it reaches the stratosphere, it has been changed and is no longer useful)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Man's production of chlorine containing compounds is insignificant compared to nature's. If every molecule of CFCs produced by man drifted up into the atmosphere and released its chlorine, man would have added about 750,000 tons of chlorine to the atmosphere during the peak year of CFC production
clorine? weren't we talking about CFC's? sure, CFC's have chlorine, but they also have flouride and carbon (is that what they stand for? the point is that it's not just chlorine)
CFC's are man-made chemicals. not from nature. and like I said before a sincle CFC molecule can destroy MANY O3 molecules.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The worst case ozone depletion scenarios of the environmentalists are insignificant compared to daily variations due to changes in the weather, solar activity, and latitude. Variations in solar UV output and the changing seasons of the year strongly effect ozone levels. ozone concentrations in portions of the ozone layer can fluctuate weekly by 40%, but this does not endanger life on the earths surface.
once again, look at the BIG picture!!! yes, it does change from time to time... sometimes it's LESS and sometimes its more. the point is that in average, it's MORE (the ozone depletion). many small changes that last a few days/months doesn't do anything bad... it's prolonged exposure to more UV rays that melts ice caps and causes skin cancer.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The "global disaster" that environmentalists predicted was a decrease in average ozone levels BY LESS THAN 10% OVER THE NEXT 100 YEARS.
I believe that has increased
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We are responsible to be good stewards of the planet God has given us
there... I lost all respect for it. didn't you say it came from a textbook? what kind of SCIENTIFIC textbook talks about religion???
talk about textbooks being crap!
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Atmospheric Sources of Clorine* (millions of tons per year)

Oceanic Evaporation : 600.0
Volcanoes : 36.0
Burning of organic substances : 8.4
Plankton : 5.0
Total Natural Sources : 649.4

Chlorine in man made CFC's : 0.75
once again, it's not chlorine...it's CFC's that do all the nasty work.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]seems to have been based on hysteria, faulty science
yeah... I say that applies to your quote... falty science.
 
  • #37
You dont know what your talking about. CFC's MAKE the chlorine which break down ozone... CFCS THEMSELVES DONT DO IT! you are being ignorant and not reading my reply thoroughly... and i would like to know where you are getting this info... because all of that are lies pretty much

how do you know its in the troposphere? give me YOUR sources.
 
  • #38
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]no offence BUT there are cycles of extinction
yes, but many scientists agree we're causing the greatest extinction in history... so just because it's happened before we should do it again?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"Did you ever stop to wonder why we are here, why mother nature let us evolve? i think she wanted styrofome and couldnt make it her self so she let us go and do our thing, we made the styrofome and now shes prolly going to give us the boot out of here cause she doesnt need us anymore."
I don't believe nature is an entity. nature is an idea created by humans... it doesn't think (as a whole that is) or anything.
and if you believe in evolution, you should agree with me... there's no previous plan on how things will evolve. it's just a spontaneous thing.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] we can screw it up to the point where WE cant be saved and the planet will shake us of like the 24 hour flu and go on about its buisness.
ok... let's all kill ourselves.
NOT!
 
  • #39
  • #40
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Oct. 14 2004,5:06)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]CFC's MAKE the chlorine which break down ozone
they don't make chlorine! they're made up of chlorine.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]you are being ignorant and not reading my reply thoroughly
nobody's perfect. you aren't answering my questions.
http://www.policyalmanac.org/environment/archive/ozone.shtml
now, if you'll excuse me... I have to go because there's a thunderstorm and I don't want the computer to explode.
CFC'S, when in the ozone layer, when exposed to the sun, break down INTO chlorine, which in turn breaks down the ozone...

That is EXACTLY my point. And you have no questions. You have just proven wrong every single thing you said about my quote. And I have now lost all respect to you due to your quite rude remarks reguarding my textbook which has God mentioned in it, you saying how any textbook with religion in it is pure bullcrap. Well everything in my quite is SCIENTIFIC DATA PROVEN RIGHT BY SCIENTISTS. Interesting how you contradict so much to make yourself seem right

You say one thing, then you go proving yourself wrong again with contradictory replies. just like in the squirrel topic.

-Spec

PS: the floride and carbon isnt what breaks down the O3... its the CHLORINE... Chlorine is the chemical most present in the stratosphere which breaks down ozone.
 
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