What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Just how much can a plant take?

Ok over winter when I can't see my plants I have decided I want to build another Bog garden. However I keep having visions of Darlingtonia growing along a stream. I live in Ohio as everyone knows and our climate is vastly different from Oregon. The record low of Florence Oregon is 9* F while here in New Carlisle the record low is -25* F. That's a difference of 34*F. Now I am basing this off of record lows simply because those are the worst of the worst and as my dad always said plan for the worst. Now it is my understanding that plants have to be able to be extremely adaptable. It would be advantageous for a zone 7/8 plant to survive in zone 5/6 and we have all heard stories of it happening such as D. Capensis and Highland Neps surviving freezes. So here is my question what do you think the lowest temperature a carnivorous plant can survive for a long time. Would it be possible for a Darlingtonia to survive a month with -5* F out in the wild? I mean I understand it is supposed suicide for a plant like this to endure these temperatures for extended times unmulched but to use the famous quote "Plants don't read books". I mean just because a Cobra hasn't endured extremely low temps for long times doesn't mean it isn't capable of. What about genetic variability. If I got a large group of genetically diverse plants and let them endure an Ohio winter and by chance some survived to breeding age would the offspring of these cold tempered plants be cold hardy? What if someone were to set up a control population of plants and let them go for like 10-15 years? Would the plants have genetically adapted to the Ohio environment to be considered a different cultivar/subspecies since they are now surviving in aplce regular Darlingtonia's don't? Now for this example I am using Dar's because that is what's important to my situation but I think it would be useful to know the extreme's that any plant can survive, even if it means extensive testing is needed. Am I being clear enough?
 
I am from Nebraska. No, it can not survive a lot of things. It will not survive a cold winter out side.  You could just take the pot of plants out side in the good months.  Sink the pots into the ground if you want the look of natural growth.


34 degrees is a massive temp difference. It is not an only.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Copper @ Dec. 22 2004,10:01)]I am from Nebraska. No, it can not survive a lot of things. It will not survive a cold winter out side.  You could just take the pot of plants out side in the good months.  Sink the pots into the ground if you want the look of natural growth.


34 degrees is a massive temp difference.  It is not an only.
I think you misunderstood what I am saying. I know They will die if exposed to severe cold for long periods of time. I just wondering if it were possible for a select few plants. Like in another thread a guy mentioned his venus flytraps surviving -30* F and they are from the Carolinas. I mean I don't care if you have them mulched under 2 ft of pine needles that is still cold. It's like this. You know how I said the lowest recorded temperature is 9*F in Florence Oregon? Well that's the lowest temperature so far. Who's to say they couldn't get a severe winter where the temperature drops down to -5* F? It's entirely possible for the temperatures in Oregon to drop down that low. It's highly unlikely but possible and there would be plants that survive unmulched conditions. Now Darlingtonia's was only an example. I want this applied to any plant.I think plants are more durable then we give them credit for. I believe just because a plant is from zone 8 doesn't mean it can't survive in a zone 7 or zone 6 with extremely little care.
 
You can also mulch your bog garden for the winter. We has a REALLY cold winter last year....Record lows left and right (try minus 35 with no heat for a night...not fun). However, my experiment plants lived! I had VFT's, a sar and some d. rotundifolia (no surprise they lived). I had them mulched under 3" of reptile cedar bedding...not recommended, but these were experimental plants, so I figured what the heck.

The other worry would be the extreme highs you guys have in the summer...much hotter that Oregon generally gets in Darlingtonia habitat. How are you going to do the cool water on the roots.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (schloaty @ Dec. 22 2004,10:42)]You can also mulch your bog garden for the winter.  We has a REALLY cold winter last year....Record lows left and right (try minus 35 with no heat for a night...not fun).  However, my experiment plants lived!  I had VFT's, a sar and some d. rotundifolia (no surprise they lived).  I had them mulched under 3" of reptile cedar bedding...not recommended, but these were experimental plants, so I figured what the heck.

The other worry would be the extreme highs you guys have in the summer...much hotter that Oregon generally gets in Darlingtonia habitat.  How are you going to do the cool water on the roots.
Well the highs in Ohio aren't really a problem. besides the minibog I see in my head is mostly a recirculating stream. From what I hear, water movement is mroe important then water temperature.Besides last summer when the highs were in the high 90s my Darlingtonia's did great.
 
I do think that some plants could survive these conditions. S. purpurea for example. I've heard that they can survive dips below -30 for quite a while and return unharmed in the winter. I think they live way up in Canada, or at least some forms do, not to say they don't live elsewhere.

I have also heard stories of some Ultricaria living in lakes that are frozen solid for MOST of the year.

I do think that some plants would be able to take these conditions, i do believe that darlingtonias can survive these conditions, once it freezes, why does it care if it gets colder?
 
I think you could possibly have some plants survive and become adapted to the cold. I know this has happened with vfts as there is a small wild population growing in the upper peninsula of Michigan, which i know for a fact has much colder winters than the Carolinas will ever see. Granted most of the plants would likely die but after time you might have a couple that could survive. Like you said though the most gentically diverse group is gonna have the best chance
 
S. purpurea is not Darlintonia. that said you would be surprised how well some cobras can survive "less than ideal" conditions. mine is sitting in WARM water in PURE peat in 70-80 degrees EVERY day and is quite happy. there is no reason not to experiment. especially with a TC grown Darlintonia. they arent rare so if yah loose it its not THAT big of a deal. go ahead and try it.
 
i dunno, not much u can do about heat with extended dry humidity.
 
  • #10
I think I'm the person that you're thinking about. I have a bog in Ohio (about 2000 ft from the shore of Lake Erie). This is the second winter that I have it. I have numerous pitcher plants, sundews and VFT's. Some of the sundews only come back from seeds. I've had a few red dragons vft's that didn't make it last year, but that's about it.
It gets colder in NC than most of you would believe. I lived in the warmest part of NC, near the SC boarder on the coast. The record low there was 0 f in 1989. There was also 13 inches of snow on the ground. All 20 of the cp species that grow there survived. The biggest factor in them surviving is that it doesn't stay that cold long.Within a week the temps were back up in the 30's and 40's. Another factor was the snow on the ground. Snow acts as an insulator. So the snow actually helped the plants survive.
The big question is, will plants survive prolong exposure to the weather in the northern part of the country. The answer to that question is, it depends on the specie. I would say most can survive, at least a few years. CP species that will survive this climate is limited to pitcher plants, vft's, sundews, butterworts and bladderworts. Will Darlingtonia survive? I have not done it successfully, but I think it's possible.
Another thing you need to keep in mind, just because a plant survives one or two winters don't mean it can survive long term. The cold weather and shorter growing period can weaken it enough to make it more prone to drought, disease ect.
Some plants can't survive, but set seeds and return from seeds.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I had them mulched under 3" of reptile cedar bedding

Cedar is poisonous to most reptiles.
 
  • #11
[b said:
Quote[/b] (rattler_mt @ Dec. 22 2004,12:46)]S. purpurea is not Darlintonia. that said you would be surprised how well some cobras can survive "less than ideal" conditions. mine is sitting in WARM water in PURE peat in 70-80 degrees EVERY day and is quite happy. there is no reason not to experiment. especially with a TC grown Darlintonia. they arent rare so if yah loose it its not THAT big of a deal. go ahead and try it.
Yeah I can attest to the durability of some cobras surviving less the ideal conditions. My cobras were fr the longest time planted in pure peat and left in an Ohio sun during summer where temperatures rose into the high 90s for a few day and they grew great. You knowI am thinking about buying a couple hundred seed of Darlingtonia and planting them as that could have a greater effect on their survival then planting adult grown greenhouse plants which have adapted to perfectly ideal conditions. Environment has a lot to do with plant/animal adaptation. Sort of like that one variety of S. Purpurea that grows in alkaline bogs and exhibits certain characteristics but when grown in under acidic conditions becomes a regular purp. So I am thinking if you were to grow a Cobra from seed not onl would you have more genetic diversity to et more cold hardy genes but the plants would be more adaptive as they would have been exposed to the environment from birth. Overal I think this is an interesting experiment.
 
  • #12
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Cedar is poisonous to most reptiles.

Oh. Must not have been cedar, then, as it was sold specifically as reptile bedding. They were red woodchips, at any rate. Thanks, Ozzy, for the clarification.
 
  • #13
schoalty, it was probably fir or cypress. if it was for herps it DEFINATLY wasnt cedar. i have killed several "Lowes" Darlingtonia my recent one is from Tim over on the CPUK forums. his plants are "hard" grown in a greenhouse. it started out as a lil bitty clump that had no problems adapting to household humidity, i think i have had sundews have a harder time adapting to my conditions. i think your seed idea has merit and is worth a try.
 
  • #14
I'm gonna back up ozzy first, the Carolinas can surprise you. We just recently had records. it was -2*F at my house(extreme western NC), it was in th single digits down at the coast, and no snow for insulation.

Now for al, genetics is a hariy subject. These are tc plants, not "homegrown/wild" plants. TC does mess up and you can get some different plants, but they cannot survive what wild plants can survive. If you are wanting a cold hardy plant, you want seed and you want to try for a plant that grows in higher/colder climates. They will have a better chance at living, but the seed will also have their parental characteristics, and some of its own. Some will be lucky and live, and some will not live. Those that live will be lucky to make it to flowering age. If you get good seed set, those could be a little more adaptive than their parents... if your lucky. Some might call this evloving some might, I call it adapting. I'm not trying to discourage, I'm motivating you, if you can some that can survive, that could mean great things, and lot of people would benefit from your experiment.
 
  • #15
Well, if I am not to take you literally on your plant selection, yes, I think plants can survive a lot better than we give them credit for.  I do have a bog in the back, and although cobra does not survive through the year every other plant, sarracenia, I have planted has.  I have added some intermedia and filiformis to it this year and I will let you know the outcome.  Rotundifolia survives well.  Tonight is a good test as it is dropping to about -7.  It did that last year for a couple of days and everything survived.  

Through experience, however, I do know that you should not jump more than a couple of zones and if you do jump zones make sure to mulch.  It is truley amazing what plants can survive.  I think capensis is a good example.  It can be frozen and come back from the roots later, or adelae which can be cooked and come back from the roots later.

I think experimenting is fine, especially since I am doing it in my own bog.  Next year I am going to add a ping and some utricularia.
 
  • #16
Ok I have been doing lots of digging going through zoning charts record lows, average lows, checking counties and what not and I have found what I believe is the absolute bottom of the barrel negative temperature range Darlingtonia can survive. Darlingtonia are known to live and thrive on MT Eddy and Mt Shasta in Northern California. It is there where I started doing my fact digging research. As I stated before the record low for Florence Oregon (Darlingtonia State Park) is around 9*F. I however thought they could survive colder and apparently so. In Shasta California the record low is -13* F Now to me that is pretty impressive. Now my area of Ohio is a zone 6 which means out average annual low is between 0*F- minus 10*F. IN fact I have only known of 2 times our temperature has ever dropped lower in my life time. Once in 1994 when our record low was -25*F and another time a couple years ago. Now I plan on mulching my Darlingtonia which will further insulate them from the cold. It is my understanding that the actual cold does not hurt plants. It's actually cold wind that can hurt them. So right now I have a hypothesis that Darlingtonia could probably survive brief temperatures colder then -13*F as long as they are protected from the wind. Hmm the more I research Darlingtonia the more tough and interesting they seem. Once it gets warm I might have to do an experiment involving sacrificing some Cobra's from Lowes. I think I am gonna plant a bunch in two of my experimental bog gardens. One I am going to heavily mulch each year and the other one I will leave to the elements to see the effect of a severe winter has on exposed plants as opposed to mulched over plants. However I think so far I have proven that Darlingtonia should be able to survive at least an Ohio winter with mulching. One day I plan on doing this experiment with crop raised from seed to see how they do however that isn't for a long time or at least untill I get a new permanent house. Next on my list VFTs... oh wait Schloaty already proved they can survive -35*F temps with minor mulching... ok then... onto S. Leucophylla it is then! maybe even P. Primuliflora as they seem to die like crazy when I pamper them. Wonder how they will survive when I throw them against the elements...
 
  • #17
I can show the leucophylla for you.  It thrives in my bog and it gets bone cold.  As a matter of fact, my Leuco still had functioning pitchers after the first freeze.  The VFT does very well to.  I have a clumping form that is spreading like crazy in the bog.

I am going to have to get some cobra from the Mt. Shasta area.
 
Back
Top