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Thread: Where does everyone stand in regards to...

  1. #889

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Finch, i believe you are misusing the word evolution, the sparrows you mentioned are merely adapting to their enviroment, not evolving.
    no he ain't. he's talking about micro-evolution (which I don't see how some people can believe, yet not believe in macro-evolution)
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]alphawolf, where is this proof of speciation? i would like to see the evidence for it, because personally i have a feeling there is something missing in it
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
    you want NATURAL selection?
    "Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the specied interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved."
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]no, its not independant, not at all. to adapt, one must evolve,. that doesnt mean it will lead to a new species.
    to evolve you must adapt too :P
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Micro-evolution, as i stated before does not result in speciation, only the change in the allel frequency between generations, which does not necessarily result in new species.
    micro-evolution is what DRIVES macro-evolution. a cow doesn't suddenly become a bison overnight.
    as far as I know there is no macro-evolution without micro-evolution.
    macro is only a lot of micros :P
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
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  2. #890

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]yes it is independent, adapting uses teh genetic variation that is present in the population, it does not require new gentic variations, as does evolution
    it can.
    (note it can also be behavioral)
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]orginal species is significantly differnt than the species with the genetic variations.
    no... that the original species is not the same species as the new species. there are tons of very similar species that are almost indistinguishable.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
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  3. #891

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    sorry alpha but those do not prove speciation to me, the first one only the male are sterile, so it does produce fertile offspring, second one of course they cant reproduce with the original stock they had a mutation that changed the reproductive cells(from your site, Note that polyploids are generally considered to be a separate "race" of the same species as the original stock), the last two examples are only cases of isolation therefore the possibility of interbreeding has not been tested, therefore you can not say they are independent species.

    Sorry alphawolf but in my opinion those are pretty weak if not invalid proof of speciation.[I]
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  4. #892

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 17 2005,6:23)]micro-evolution is what DRIVES macro-evolution. a cow doesn't suddenly become a bison overnight.
    as far as I know there is no macro-evolution without micro-evolution.
    macro is only a lot of micros :P
    or so the theory goes. There is no proof that the allel patterns wont just flucuate back and forth and produce on changes in the actual species. therefore you can have mirco-evolution without ever having macro-evolution.

    and yes with out micro there will be no macro theoretically.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  5. #893

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    one or two weren't good examples but how about the goatsbeard, the primrose,
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]The article is on page 22 of the February, 1989 issue of Scientific American. It's called "A Breed Apart." It tells about studies conducted on a fruit fly, Rhagoletis pomonella, that is a parasite of the hawthorn tree and its fruit, which is commonly called the thorn apple. About 150 years ago, some of these flies began infesting apple trees, as well. The flies feed an breed on either apples or thorn apples, but not both. There's enough evidence to convince the scientific investigators that they're witnessing speciation in action. Note that some of the investigators set out to prove that speciation was not happening; the evidence convinced them otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Analysis of contact between two chromosomal races of house mice in northern Italy show that natural selection will produce alleles that bar interracial matings if the resulting offspring are unfit hybrids. This is an important exception to the general rule that intermixing races will not tend to become separate species because the constant sharing of genes minimizes the genetic diversity requisite for speciation.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]There is no proof that the allel patterns wont just flucuate back and forth and produce on changes in the actual species.
    there is. fossils, homologous/analogous/vestigial structures, the cichlid fishes, speciation events, etc...[QUOTE]
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
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  6. #894

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 17 2005,1:03)]and yes with out micro there will be no macro theoretically.
    Not so much theoretically as logically. You need many small steps in order to produce one big leap.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

  7. #895
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    adaptaitons is micro evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]the last two examples are only cases of isolation therefore the possibility of interbreeding has not been tested, therefore you can not say they are independent species.
    But the mere fact that they are different at all is proof



    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]There is no proof that the allel patterns wont just flucuate back and forth and produce on changes in the actual species

    That happens too ,but not all the time. in that case the whole species changes.... thats marco-evolution. The whole nominate species could change, but the isolated stock could stay the same. Eventually the isolated stock might move back into the area of the nominate species and the wto would be seperate but live along side eachother.


    When species colinize a island, two similar and closely related species on the same island could both be descended from seperate immigration waves of the same nominate species from the mainland. We have fossle and observed evvidence of this in the white-eye bird family. This one cartain species of that family wanders alot and often colinizes different ocenic islands(often as in a few thousand years intervles) The first wave of colonists adapts and changes enough so that it cant interbreed with the nominate species when a second wave of immigration comes. If the two resorce slightly different food sorces then the two will live side by side, changing. The process can continue.... there is evedence of up to FOUR times a wave of one species has settled in with descenednts from one of its earlier colinizations. Dna testing shows witch came from the first wave and witch came from the last, so we know it happened
    that makes no logic

  8. #896
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    The bigger birds here in the midwest, i recently saw these house sparrows de-hull black oil sunflower seeds. They aint supposed to be able to do that, hulled sunflowerseeds are supossed to be sparrow proof!! [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/mad.gif[/img] no wonder i have to keep changing the pil feeder when theres only sparrows there [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/mad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/mad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/mad.gif[/img]
    that makes no logic

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