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Thread: Where does everyone stand in regards to...

  1. #17
    rattler's Avatar
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    actually end it took ALOT less than 50,000 years to create the vast majority of those dog breeds. most have been developed in the last 1500 years. i also agree that a billion years is actually a hard number to comprehend dinosaurs were around until about 65 million years ago(if you believe current geologic theory). "modern man" has been around for what? approx 10,000 years. "recorded history"(as in actually written down in a language be it paper or the side of a temple or what have you) only goes back a couple thousand years. our most accurate weather models comes from data during the last 100-150 years. 1 billion years is a hard number to try and wrap your brain around.
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    and it's not "just" one billion years that life has had to evolve...
    The Earth formed about 4 billion years ago, and surprisingly the first fossil microorganisms are approximately 3.5 billion years old.
    now THAT is a LOOOOOOOONG time!
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  3. #19

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    I mean people that belive in evolution entirely and the bible entirely. They contradict each other.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

  4. #20

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    yes...
    If you believe in evolution, lambs and lions have never lived side by side without eating each other. ... and god didn't "create" the fish, the fowl, etc... nor did eve come from adam... etc.
    yet the bible says that happened... so you can't have both.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
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  5. #21
    Whats it to ya? Finch's Avatar
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    im glad this topic didnt go off the handle like the last one.

    I am a evolutionist but really im thinking of avoiding further conflicts (elsewhere) by just staying out out of the discussion because "No one cares what you think" is coming up far too frequently in them.
    that makes no logic

  6. #22
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    This is something I feel very strongly about, because I see these issues of interpretation at the heart of many conflicts today.
    I don't think that believing in the Bible or the various theories of evolution is impossible. But, a hard-driving, literalist view of either makes the other exceedingly difficult to accept. I'm not even Christian, but I find most of the Bible to which I've been exposed to be quite believable, if occasionally inconsistent. I've rarely seen glaring condradictions between them except when consulting people who are particularly ignorant of one topic or the other. Sometimes, it seems to me that the only reason people refute one or the other is because they feel like Creationism threatens the existance of evolution or that evolution threatens the truth of Creationism (or, somehow, the existance of God.)
    On one hand, evolution, although presented in schools as the end-all and be-all of biological whys and hows, has a very shaky foundation in observed science. Darwin's theories on evolution describe the process as continuous. However, the fossil record and observed phenomenon show 'real-world' evolution to be something happening in fits and starts, punctuated by long periods of stablity, which calls the mechanics of evolution - as described by Darwin - into question. As we know it, evolution is a fairly sturdy theory of how things change and differentiate in estabilished systems of biology, but it becomes weaker and weaker as we approach the question, "what is the origin of life on Earth?" At this time, that question is one for organic chemists and statisticians, not evolutionary biologists. Most importantly, while most professionals in the field agree evolution is possible, few are so bold and certain as to assert that evolution is the only way things could have begun.
    On the other hand, the Bible has been translated, edited, cut and amended by people for several thousand years (not sure how old the Old Testament is, but I'm under the impression that most scholars accept it to be at leask 2500.) It's full of symbolism and metaphor, plus lots of sketchy fantastic details that may or may not have happened (issues of faith, particularly.) Without even speaking to how people are interpreting the Bible's account of creation, we should call the Bible into question because throughout history the Bible and Judeo-Christian religions in general have been manipulated for the benefit of individuals many times (such as whoever declared Christmas to coincide with the popular folk holiday of Saturnalia, I think it was Nero maybe, while the birth of Christ can be more accurately be placed around September with a careful examination of the Bible.) Just like any other system of living parts, religions have evolved to attract subscribers and survive (see Hobbes' Leviathan if you're down with Middle English) and I don't see much compelling evidence to believe the Bibles of today - and even more, their interpretations - reflect the knowledge and sentiments of the Bibles of yesterday. I think ZAK's link makes a good treatment of the many seemingly harmless, mostly unintentional changes that have made today's Bible look quite unlike the original Hebrew editions. More than anything, I find it very hard to believe that God would leave a bunch of clues to be discovered (fossil evidence,) allow us to create all these useful sciences for figuring things out and making stuff happen (geology, biology, genetics, chemistry, physics,) and then top it all off by leading us to a useful conclusion (we can derive applied sciences from evolutionary theory) that's utterly incorrect. To me, it's more believable to think that there were a few typos in the several thousand years of reprinting that the Bible has undergone (especially those early, handwritten years.) After all, to err is human - isn't there something like that in the Bible?
    Besides, who's to say that God's method of creation wasn't evolution - gradual change over time? Everything else in creation changes gradually with time - would God bother to do the stuff in Genesis by hand if he (or she) could just set up some grand domino-effect process to do it automatically? (If you think so, I think you're not giving God enough credit.) Only the slightest shred of imagination is required to make the story of Genesis a story of the Big Bang and evolution with God pushing the buttons. Even if one party is right and the other dead wrong, isn't it better to accept both ideas until we know for sure? I've never had any trouble keeping both possibilities in mind, personally. This might be uncomfortable for someone who's a very devout Christian, but I doubt it would cause a breakdown in logic so severe that the person in question could not go on.
    Despite this, I take comfort in the idea that something had to have dreamt up all this scientific causality that we see today. There are some pragmatists that say that the universe 'doesn't need God' to be created, but I think that whatever lead up to that creation must have been something like a god.
    On a more opinionative note, I've always thought it was a real shame that hard-line creationists couldn't incorporate the observed phenomenon of evolution into what they feel to be true, as it seems to me that evolution is the most elegant and sublime hand of God. If there's anything in the world to tell us that God exists, it's the beauty of living things and the fantastic processes that maintain them.
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  7. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]they feel like Creationism threatens the existance of evolution
    umm... it does. both creationism and evolution cannot be true.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Darwin's theories on evolution describe the process as continuous. However, the fossil record and observed phenomenon show 'real-world' evolution to be something happening in fits and starts, punctuated by long periods of stablity, which calls the mechanics of evolution - as described by Darwin -
    I don't know exactly how darwin put it... but it doesn't really matter. If you think about it, if there are more oportunities (ie... when plants first began growing on land... and when animals first began living on land too...) evolution will occur faster because any given mutation has a greater chance of being good.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]As we know it, evolution is a fairly sturdy theory of how things change and differentiate in estabilished systems of biology, but it becomes weaker and weaker as we approach the question, "what is the origin of life on Earth?" At this time, that question is one for organic chemists and statisticians, not evolutionary biologists.
    yes, because evolution is not concerned with the beginnings of life. It's concerned about how life became what it is today.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
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  8. #24

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    Evolution is a fact. Since its a fact, and it and creationism cannot exist together, then "creationism" gets ruled out. It's a very simple concept to grasp. But because "creationism" requires "faith" that an actual "god" "created" everything... then evolution gets questioned. I don't question it. I don't see a god anywhere. But what i do see is that every human being undergoes about 100-200 genetic mutations per lifetime. And it makes sense that if one of those mutations was to our benefit, would stay in the gene pool, and maybe the "older" generation phenotype die out. In laymans terms - theres proof for evolution, unlike creationism.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

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