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Where does everyone stand in regards to...

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  • #721
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Really, it's just a matter of life trying to fill every little crack.
life doesn't TRY to evolve. The opportunity just comes and certain mutations work so they survive. HOWEVER evolution isn't random. Natural selection drives it.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] but every now and again we get a sucessful mutation or adaptation that gives that organism an edge.
and the mutation being sucessful depends on the environment. If let's say a VFT with two traps scares the heck out of sheep that would eat it (lol... bad examples I know) but an ant would be too small to know and would get trapped.
 
  • #722
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]life doesn't TRY to evolve. The opportunity just comes and certain mutations work so they survive. HOWEVER evolution isn't random. Natural selection drives it.

Thank you, I think that we're all well aware of the fact that natural selection is not a conscious, tangible entity. I think you know what I meant. If you really wanna nitpick though *ahem*... I think that we can keep it friendly and enjoyable by not doing so, though.
 
  • #723
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Thank you, I think that we're all well aware of the fact that natural selection is not a conscious, tangible entity. I think you know what I meant. If you really wanna nitpick though *ahem*... I think that we can keep it friendly and enjoyable by not doing so, though.
are we all? Just like we are all aware evolution isn't "just" a theory, it has tons of proof, we have SEEN evolution in process, life doesn't TRY to evolve, evolution isn't from simplicity to complexity (many times it is but doesn't have to be), when species evolve not the whole species does (usually) but populations do, we didn't come from chimps/gorillas, humans aren't the top of the evolutionary tree, etc?

there are some people here that would get the wrong idea...
 
  • #724
Ah, but who created the evolutionary tree?
 
  • #726
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,12:54)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 11 2005,6:51)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 11 2005,11:12)]You can't fully belive in religion and evolution... maybe parts of both if twisted and blended to the persons liking.. but not both in their entireties.
Why not, i am yet to see anything that excludes all religion in evolution or vice versa, some religions say that you cant believe in evolution, and some religions believe things that conflict with evolution but not all religions and evolution clash
You cannot fully belive both. Some parts of evolution contradict creationism and visa versa.
where does evolution say there is no god/higher being? i dont ever remember that coming up in all my study of evolution. some religions yes i can see a conflict in but you cant say that all religions conflict with evolution
 
  • #727
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 12 2005,12:30)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,12:54)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 11 2005,6:51)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 11 2005,11:12)]You can't fully belive in religion and evolution... maybe parts of both if twisted and blended to the persons liking.. but not both in their entireties.
Why not, i am yet to see anything that excludes all religion in evolution or vice versa, some religions say that you cant believe in evolution, and some religions believe things that conflict with evolution but not all religions and evolution clash
You cannot fully belive both. Some parts of evolution contradict creationism and visa versa.
where does evolution say there is no god/higher being? i dont ever remember that coming up in all my study of evolution. some religions yes i can see a conflict in but you cant say that all religions conflict with evolution
No religion fully couples with evolution.

Period.

Do you know one that does?
 
  • #728
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Do you know one that does?
My faith. And seemingly Ktulu's. Why box myself in the confines of a single religion? And if you're thinking of saying something like "well a few people 'aint a religion", well, we all start somewhere, don't we? ;) And that's the point of this conversation, isn't it??
cool.gif
 
  • #729
So nepenthes evolved from a mutant plant that all of a sudden put out a wierd formation that happened to be able to absorb nutrients. Somehow, that's no perfect logic to me!

Peter
 
  • #730
This is a conversation that many of you will have over and over throughout your life. You may find, as I have, that your opinion will evolve (heh, heh..) a bit one way or the other.

When you experience the birth of a child or the end of your rope, you may feel moved by a power that needs no explanation. This is faith. Faith is something that is actively sought. Real Faith is personal, it will never be handed to you or forced upon you. Faith needs no proof. How do you prove that love exists? I have faith that it does. I see it in the faces of my children every day.

I am in a science field. I have worked with science my whole life, and I love it. I do very much believe in evolution, and I do very much believe in a Higher Power. One does not exist to disprove the other.

This has been a circular argument and always will be. Evolution can be approached through science. Faith can not. Try not to get them confused.

Steve
 
  • #731
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 12 2005,10:28)]So nepenthes evolved from a mutant plant that all of a sudden put out a wierd formation that happened to be able to absorb nutrients.  Somehow, that's no perfect logic to me!
To be honest, comments like this do more to demonstrate that you don't know how evolution works, rather than adding weight to the creationist argument. A strawman of evolution is not evolution.

Not wanting to learn about it is fine... there are plenty of things I'm not intereted in learning about... but I would think that learning about something would be a prerequisite to trying to convice others that it isn't true.
 
  • #732
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,6:57)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 12 2005,12:30)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,12:54)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 11 2005,6:51)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 11 2005,11:12)]You can't fully belive in religion and evolution... maybe parts of both if twisted and blended to the persons liking.. but not both in their entireties.
Why not, i am yet to see anything that excludes all religion in evolution or vice versa, some religions say that you cant believe in evolution, and some religions believe things that conflict with evolution but not all religions and evolution clash
You cannot fully belive both. Some parts of evolution contradict creationism and visa versa.
where does evolution say there is no god/higher being?  i dont ever remember that coming up in all my study of evolution.  some religions yes i can see a conflict in but you cant say that all religions conflict with evolution
No religion fully couples with evolution.

Period.

Do you know one that does?
Have you studied every religion that is out there? i have not but know that some of the nature based religions do not have any conflicts with the theory of evolution as long as people dont add the origin of life into which does not belong with evolution. Also there are an amazing number of religions out there and like Est his does, just because it may not be a main stream religion does not make it false or not a religion.

And just so you know many of the animalistic religions of africa have creation stories that sound very much like evolution(eg humans coming from orangutans)
 
  • #733
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]To be honest, comments like this do more to demonstrate that you don't know how evolution works, rather than adding weight to the creationist argument. A strawman of evolution is not evolution.

This is not my opinion of evolution, this is just an example of how evolution must work according to what y'all have been saying. How do you propose nepenthes evolved? By slowly but surely developing a more and more complex formation off of its petiole until finally some of the plants managed to trap and digest insects?

Peter
 
  • #734
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 12 2005,10:28)]So nepenthes evolved from a mutant plant that all of a sudden put out a wierd formation that happened to be able to absorb nutrients. Somehow, that's no perfect logic to me!

Peter
It didn't evolve from a mutated plant. uggh....

Let's say plant A lives in a nutrient poor environment. (its not carnivorous yet). Let's say the next generation (although it might not happen so quickly) Has a feature that traps insects on its leaves. It absorbs the dying insects nutrients. Because of this it grow bigger and when it reproduces it passes on that trait. This puts them at an advantage to the other plants of the same specie. A few generations down the plant is populated everywhere and because of this advantage the plants of the species that dont possess the trait die off or are very rare.

Now.
Let's say the plant with the "bug absorbing" trait continues evolving and evolves to have cup shaped ends on its leaves. And so on and so forth. Its a very long process.
The thing is that there are always going to be all kinds of mutations. Its all about the mutation fitting into what the plant requires.

In case you don't get me yet heres another example.

Let's say there is 1 species of humans with 3 different kinds of mutations. humans a b and c

Human A is slightly more muscular than the rest
Human B has slightly better hearing than the rest
Human C has better eyesight than the rest

Now. Depending on the environment these 3 humans are placed, the trait will prove benefitial.

Environment 1:
Let's say we put humans A B and C in the Forest. In order for them to build shelter and catch food they need strenght and higher muscularity. Human A will do very good in this environment and attact attention from the opposite sex and spread that trait around. Humans B and C don't benefit from this environment. They might either die off or live in very small quantities.

Environment 2:
Now. Let's say we put humants A B and C in the plains. There are predators lurking and one must have good hearing in order to dodge and escape them. Human B will benefit from this environment. Humans A and C will probably die off or live in very small amounts. Human B will dominate and reproduce more than A and C.

Environment 3:
Lastly, let's say that we place humans A B and C in a safari. You need to have good eyesight to spot predators from far off. Human C will benefit from this environment and A and B will die off.

You catch my drift.

Depending on the environment and the trait, it will be accepted into the species and dominate. After that trait dominates, the ones without that trait die off. After everyone in the species has that trait from there branch off other traits that may or may not be accepted.

The process is slow may take thousands of years.
 
  • #735
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 12 2005,11:58)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,6:57)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 12 2005,12:30)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,12:54)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 11 2005,6:51)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 11 2005,11:12)]You can't fully belive in religion and evolution... maybe parts of both if twisted and blended to the persons liking.. but not both in their entireties.
Why not, i am yet to see anything that excludes all religion in evolution or vice versa, some religions say that you cant believe in evolution, and some religions believe things that conflict with evolution but not all religions and evolution clash
You cannot fully belive both. Some parts of evolution contradict creationism and visa versa.
where does evolution say there is no god/higher being? i dont ever remember that coming up in all my study of evolution. some religions yes i can see a conflict in but you cant say that all religions conflict with evolution
No religion fully couples with evolution.

Period.

Do you know one that does?
Have you studied every religion that is out there? i have not but know that some of the nature based religions do not have any conflicts with the theory of evolution as long as people dont add the origin of life into which does not belong with evolution. Also there are an amazing number of religions out there and like Est his does, just because it may not be a main stream religion does not make it false or not a religion.

And just so you know many of the animalistic religions of africa have creation stories that sound very much like evolution(eg humans coming from orangutans)
Religion which follows the bible contradicts with evolution.

Is there a religion that doesn't use the bible?
 
  • #736
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Is there a religion that doesn't use the bible?

Dude, there is only ONE that does....Christianity. All other don't use the Bible....
Judiasm uses the Torrah,
Musslims follow the Koran
and many religions don't even have a singular text.
 
  • #737
[b said:
Quote[/b] (schloaty @ Jan. 12 2005,1:32)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Is there a religion that doesn't use the bible?

Dude, there is only ONE that does....Christianity. All other don't use the Bible....
Judiasm uses the Torrah,
Musslims follow the Koran
and many religions don't even have a singular text.
That are based on the bible or some kind of scriptures or some kind of god or some kind of faith. Its just twisted around. Catholics use the bible also. Jehova's Witnesses and many others use the bible also. many other religions belive in a god too so aparently you odn't know much about religion.

All religion is based on faith. All of it.
 
  • #738
The fundamental dispute between evolution and creation is in the difference between science and religion.  So it doesn't matter if a particular African animist religion has a creation story that sounds quite a bit like evolution.  Unless the story is updated as new information is learned, it isn't remotely like evolution theory.  I think such things should be taught in school.  As Anthropology, not Science.
 
  • #739
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]That are based on the bible or some kind of scriptures or some kind of god or some kind of faith. Its just twisted around. Catholics use the bible also. Jehova's Witnesses and many others use the bible also. many other religions belive in a god too so aparently you odn't know much about religion.

All religion is based on faith. All of it.

Um...Catholics and Jehovas Witnesses are different kinds of Chirstians.

And I never said other religions don't beleive in God (or gods, for that matter). Where did you get that from my post? I did not mean to imply it. They all have their own vision of what God is (or gods are). I only meant to say that it is a false statement to say every religion uses the Bible.
 
  • #740
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,11:38)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (schloaty @ Jan. 12 2005,1:32)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Is there a religion that doesn't use the bible?

Dude, there is only ONE that does....Christianity.  All other don't use the Bible....
Judiasm uses the Torrah,
Musslims follow the Koran
and many religions don't even have a singular text.
That are based on the bible or some kind of scriptures or some kind of god or some kind of faith. Its just twisted around. Catholics use the bible also. Jehova's Witnesses and many others use the bible also. many other religions belive in a god too so aparently you odn't know much about religion.

All religion is based on faith. All of it.
i love this post. its great why? because of the lack of understanding it convays. Catholics are a part of Christianity as are Luterans, Mormons, Jahovahs Whitesses and all those others like that. if your religion revolves around Jesus Christ that your religion is just a sub category of Christianity. are there differences? certainly, definatly but they are inter-related.

yes all religion is based on faith. but what that faith is based on varries GREATLY. not all religions use a book such as the bibal or the koran. are there some religions that have full belief in evolution? sure. why not? why wouldnt there be?

like i said on page 1 or 2 of this monster thread i fully believe in evolution. however i also fully believe in ghosts. now if that doesnt keep me awake some nights trying to figure out how the two can be hand in hand.
smile_l_32.gif
 
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