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Where does everyone stand in regards to...

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  • #61
Oh let me add one more thing, before this ends up a war, A_E, and Finch, etc(sorry you were the only two people in the topic I could think of without going back over all the names, and it has nothing to do with anything you may have said). Don't take this topic seriously, just dicuss the matters, be polite, and have fun.

LOL,
~Wes~

P.S. Finch, I like your siggy. I just finished reading about Hemurabi's(sp) code.
 
  • #62
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ Dec. 27 2004,11:42)]Mutations are constant, but the rate of the number of benificial mutations incorporated into a species gene pool is not consistant
It is probability. The "chance" one will be benefitial. In different environments there would be different "chances" within a specific species, for a mutation to be benefitial. Which creates a probability, a solid number. If you flip a coin 100 times, the number of heads and tails will always be close, because of no outside interuptions. Within genetic mutations, it being accepted as beneficial by the environment also has to be taken into account... therefore raising or lowering the number. But there will still be a solid number.. whether it be 1% or 99% there will be one.
 
  • #63
A better job! i type franticly and dont spellcheck for  fear that the discussion will leave me behind!

P.s. thanks Wes, actuallly to be a effective timeline my sig must go on to the next event, no mater how much i like this current one
smile_h_32.gif
 
  • #64
hey look it just did

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]  Don't take this topic seriously, just dicuss the matters, be polite, and have fun.

thanks, i know. truth is i enjoy a good debate, even if i am not very good (at it)

A_E there are so many variables that need to be taken into account that a simple coin toss does not provide a good example. Most mutations disrupt the genetic code in some way, and most are harfull, its not 50/50. Mostly, mutations that offer a marked atvantage over others are usually incorporated in time into a species gene pool
 
  • #65
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ Dec. 27 2004,11:53)]A_E there are so many variables that need to be taken into account that a simple coin toss does not provide a good example. Most mutations disrupt the genetic code in some way, and most are harfull, its not 50/50. Mostly, mutations that offer a marked atvantage over others are usually incorporated in time into a species gene pool
i didn't say 50/50 i said wether it is 1% of 99% there IS a number and it is NOT casual as you have said. For your information, most aren't harmful, most are silent mutations. A human being undergoes hundreds of mutations per generation, Most not doing anything or being corrected before they are expressed. If all the mutations you have undergone in your lifetime where expressed you would be dead by now.
 
  • #66
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Dec. 27 2004,8:44)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 27 2004,11:35)]There's no need to get combative, AE. The facts may be in our face, but there is ample reason to doubt facts.
If facts can be doubted, in comparison, faith shouldn't be a factor in determining our history. As many scientist would say to you and other creationists "where are the facts?". Faith is a weird thing to belive anything by and beliving faith over facts is illogical, in regards to science and anything else.
Well, as a matter of fact, I'm not a Creationist (I'm not even Judeo-Christian,) I'm a firm believer in evolution, so much that I'm shelling out $15k a year to go to college to study evolutionary biology. However, I don't see what that has to do with it to begin with. But I am a scientist, and I'm a good one. I refuse to accept anything as concrete fact because that's what thinking scientifically is all about - exploring all possibilities. It might not be intuitive that we must rely on faith to believe in facts, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the case.
If you explore the reasons that you take things to be fact, you will eventually come upon a point where you have no other choice but to justify yourself by saying, "Just because," or "Because that's how things happened in the past."
We can't escape factoring faith into our conclusions about history, because it's the basis of all we have and know.
~Joe
 
  • #67
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Dec. 27 2004,9:01)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ Dec. 27 2004,11:53)]A_E there are so many variables that need to be taken into account that a simple coin toss does not provide a good example. Most mutations disrupt the genetic code in some way, and most are harfull, its not 50/50. Mostly, mutations that offer a marked atvantage over others are usually incorporated in time into a species gene pool
i didn't say 50/50 i said wether it is 1% of 99% there IS a number and it is NOT casual as you have said. For your information, most aren't harmful, most are silent mutations. A human being undergoes hundreds of mutations per generation, Most not doing anything or being corrected before they are expressed. If all the mutations you have undergone in your lifetime where expressed you wouldn't go past your 5th birthday.
You're mixing two uses of the word mutation.
While mutations do occur in the DNA of estabilished cells while we live out our lives, these are not mutations that lead to evolution. These mutations just change how our cells work. Unless they occur in one of the gonadal stem cells which divides to produce gametes (sperm/ovas,) they will not be passed on to your offspring.
The mutations that effect your offspring occur when you are concieved, as the individual chromasomes in the gametes pair off and cross over. The RNA compounds which zip these chromasomes together sometimes snag extra alelles into the mix, and that's where mutations come from. These mutations are much rarer, and a vast majority of the time, they are deleterious (harmful enough to prevent conception or maturation.)
In addition, so many other things factor in to what makes a mutation beneficial or deleterious - it is near impossible to assign a regular value to the probability of such mutations, unless you are talking about a particular instance with no variable conditions. Even if you could derive a probability, there's no assurance that two samples of the ratio of beneficial/deleterious would look at all the same. It is entirely possible that a coin with equal odds of landing heads versus tails turn up heads on every toss - just not probable.
~Joe
 
  • #68
[b said:
Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 28 2004,12:02)]Well, as a matter of fact, I'm not a Creationist (I'm not even Judeo-Christian,) I'm a firm believer in evolution, so much that I'm shelling out $15k a year to go to college to study evolutionary biology. However, I don't see what that has to do with it to begin with. But I am a scientist, and I'm a good one. I refuse to accept anything as concrete fact because that's what thinking scientifically is all about - exploring all possibilities. It might not be intuitive that we must rely on faith to believe in facts, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the case.
If you explore the reasons that you take things to be fact, you will eventually come upon a point where you have no other choice but to justify yourself by saying, "Just because," or "Because that's how things happened in the past."
We can't escape factoring faith into our conclusions about history, because it's the basis of all we have and know.
Capisco

I agree, faith might be something to take into account but when it become the basis of anything logical or define anything... well... it can't. Faith isn't good ground to stand on, facts are a better foundation. Creationisnt on the other hand think their "faith" that a "god" created all the animals is true over the theory of evolution when evolution is based on fact, and evidence. I don't understand creationists.
 
  • #69
First let me say i think its very interesting how you hard line evoluntionist are taking such a literalist apporach to interperting the bible, a more literal approach then most people who believe inteh bible.

Second let me say about all your scientific proof, if given enough time there will always be an annomoly, taking the coin fliping as an example(because its easy) if you flip it enough times you will eventually have the coin land on it side, which destroys the consistence of the method. Also at one time science "proved" the world was flat and well i dont think anybody believes that any more.

Third i dont remember any part of the bible that lists all the creatures on earth, i dont remember any rattle snakes in the bible but i also dont recall any part where it says, here are all the things god created and thats it, i mean that would have created one hell of a big book if they listed every creature.

As for gentic mutations, first most of them are harmless, secondly only gentic mutations in the reproductive cells are passed on, so even if a creature suddenly has an advantageous mutation it is not going to pass on to the next generation unless it is in the reproductive cells.

and as a closing remark, all the words, interpretations, and believes of man are failable. To take either the bible or the theory of evolution as unquestionably true makes a person a fool, im not saying that you cant believe in only one or the other, but not keeping an open mind, especally those of you who call yourselves "scientists" is a very bad approach to life.
 
  • #70
[b said:
Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 28 2004,12:11)]You're mixing two uses of the word mutation.
While mutations do occur in the DNA of estabilished cells while we live out our lives, these are not mutations that lead to evolution. These mutations just change how our cells work. Unless they occur in one of the gonadal stem cells which divides to produce gametes (sperm/ovas,) they will not be passed on to your offspring.
The mutations that effect your offspring occur when you are concieved, as the individual chromasomes in the gametes pair off and cross over. The RNA compounds which zip these chromasomes together sometimes snag extra alelles into the mix, and that's where mutations come from. These mutations are much rarer, and a vast majority of the time, they are deleterious (harmful enough to prevent conception or maturation.)
In addition, so many other things factor in to what makes a mutation beneficial or deleterious - it is near impossible to assign a regular value to the probability of such mutations, unless you are talking about a particular instance with no variable conditions. Even if you could derive a probability, there's no assurance that two samples of the ratio of beneficial/deleterious would look at all the same. It is entirely possible that a coin with equal odds of landing heads versus tails turn up heads on every toss - just not probable.
~Joe
I realize, in the begging i meant mutations that occur during meiosis (sex cells). (when i was talking about probability)
 
  • #71
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Dec. 27 2004,9:16)]Faith isn't good ground to stand on, facts are a better foundation.
And it would be swell if we had pure, real facts, but really the closest thing that we have to a fact is that all facts depend on faith in consistency. Certainly, a belief based on former experience is better - practically speaking - for making decisions. But, it is still based on the faith that our former experiences can help us make decisions about the future.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Creationisnt on the other hand think their "faith" that a "god" created all the animals is true over the theory of evolution when evolution is based on fact, and evidence. I don't understand creationists.
I don't think that many educated Creationists feel that they have the same kind of facts that people talk about when making scientific derivations. When a person says, "I believe that Creation is correct because I have faith in the Bible," they are saying that they are trusting the Bible's account of the matter, without requiring evidence or fact. If they had evidence, they wouldn't give it such a (relatively) weak label as faith.
~Joe
 
  • #72
[b said:
Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 28 2004,12:25)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Dec. 27 2004,9:16)]Faith isn't good ground to stand on, facts are a better foundation.
And it would be swell if we had pure, real facts, but really the closest thing that we have to a fact is that all facts depend on faith in consistency. Certainly, a belief based on former experience is better - practically speaking - for making decisions. But, it is still based on the faith that our former experiences can help us make decisions about the future.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Creationisnt on the other hand think their "faith" that a "god" created all the animals is true over the theory of evolution when evolution is based on fact, and evidence. I don't understand creationists.
I don't think that many educated Creationists feel that they have the same kind of facts that people talk about when making scientific derivations. When a person says, "I believe that Creation is correct because I have faith in the Bible," they are saying that they are trusting the Bible's account of the matter, without requiring evidence or fact. If they had evidence, they wouldn't give it such a (relatively) weak label as faith.
~Joe
Logic is a better word. Scientists base their facts on their logic.. 1 and 1 make 2.
 
  • #73
O.K,
Let me ask a question.
If god is real and loves people so much, where was he when my country was getting destroyed by evil men? Where was he when those same evil men killed babies by putting them on a barbecue? If he loves people so much, why did he let us suffer so much?
hundreds died in Bosnia during the war, and not once did God come to help us, he loves us so much he let us suffer and die.
And what about all those poor people in Asia that died from a Tsunami?
If god did it, I see he adores his people, he only triggered Tsunamis that killed over 20'000 people.
I see he adores his people.
And yet, the Bible always talks about how much god loves people and sacrificed his son to help us all.
And yet, he never helped us when the war was raging in Bosnia, and he conjured up tsunamis that killed thousands.(at least a few of you say he did)

Its also been proven that polar bears were once Brown bears, but some brown bears went North tot he Arctic region where there is much more snow and became white: They evolved and adapted to suit their new conditions.

Dino
 
  • #74
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If they had evidence, they wouldn't give it such a (relatively) weak label as faith.
~Joe

Creationist scientists use the very same data that evolutionists collect. They interperet differently, according to what a creationist believes. An evolutionist will interperet according to how the evolutionist believes.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]O.K,
Let me ask a question.
If god is real and loves people so much, where was he when my country was getting destroyed by evil men? Where was he when those same evil men killed babies by putting them on a barbecue? If he loves people so much, why did he let us suffer so much?
hundreds died in Bosnia during the war, and not once did God come to help us, he loves us so much he let us suffer and die.
And what about all those poor people in Asia that died from a Tsunami?
If god did it, I see he adores his people, he only triggered Tsunamis that killed over 20'000 people.
I see he adores his people.
And yet, the Bible always talks about how much god loves people and sacrificed his son to help us all.
And yet, he never helped us when the war was raging in Bosnia, and he conjured up tsunamis that killed thousands.(at least a few of you say he did)

That is a very good question actually, and I doubt that you will like or accept my answer cause you are not a Christian so you have know reason to believe me unless the Holy Spirit opens your eyes(spiritually speaking of course) to see it that way.(yep, it's official.... I'm Jesus freak.... oooooh I think I like that term. LOL).
Anyway, God does allow bad things to happen to us, but He doesn't make them happen. If the world we perfect, why would we need a God to save us? It states in the Bible(I'll have to look it up for you) that the world is Satan's and that God is allowing Satan to work in the world. God is PERFECT, He loves us unconditionally, but has allowed the enemy(Satan) to attack us. He didn't do all those things, Satan does them.(now I know you think I'm nuts) And actaully catstrophies like the tsunami are mentioned in the Bible, as warnings to the return to Him, and eventually as warnings as to the return of Jesus Christ( kinda random, but is Christ like His last name or sometin', just food for thought) I think I'm done. I know you'll have something to say about it to show me wrong, and I hope I can find it in scriptures to back me up. But heres the best part, Satan will eventually burn in hell for all eternity.

Later,
~Wes~
 
  • #75
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Wesley @ Dec. 28 2004,10:05)]That is a very good question actually, and I doubt that you will like or accept my answer cause you are not a Christian so you have know reason to believe me unless the Holy Spirit opens your eyes(spiritually speaking of course) to see it that way.(yep, it's official.... I'm Jesus freak.... oooooh I think I like that term.  LOL).
  Anyway, God does allow bad things to happen to us, but He doesn't make them happen.  If the world we perfect, why would we need a God to save us?  It states in the Bible(I'll have to look it up for you) that the world is Satan's and that God is allowing Satan to work in the world.  God is PERFECT, He loves us unconditionally, but has allowed the enemy(Satan) to attack us.  He didn't do all those things, Satan does them.(now I know you think I'm nuts)  And actaully catstrophies like the tsunami are mentioned in the Bible, as warnings to the return to Him, and eventually as warnings as to the return of Jesus Christ( kinda random, but is Christ like His last name or sometin', just food for thought)  I think I'm done.  I know you'll have something to say about it to show me wrong, and I hope I can find it in scriptures to back me up.  But heres the best part, Satan will eventually burn in hell for all eternity.

Later,
  ~Wes~
If he was truly wonderful, Bosnia wouldnt be in the state its in today.
You will understand if you visit Bosnia today and see for yourself what state its in.
And you know what else?
Nearly everyone there prays to god, because no one will help them. And god has NEVER helped me and and my country, but they persistantly pray, hoping one day he will help them.
HOW SAD.
And god still doesnt help them.

I dont mean to offend, but I dont need proof or backing up.
God has failed me and my country, and Bosnia is in a bad state, possibly beyond repair. And still he doesnt help us.
Thats why I dont believe in God and the entire business.


Evolution and Science, however, make much more sense.
It has explained so many things to me, and there is proof behind every theory.

Dino
 
  • #76
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Nearly everyone there prays to god, because no one will help them.

Wouldn't that kinda be our fault? If they pray to God because no one else will help them, wouldn't that be the rest of the world's fault? I'm hurt, I pray to him every day, not cause no one else will help me though. Oh, He does help, you just don't see it. It's a spirtual help, not physical, though it does become physical. You'd have to the Book of Myters. To see what I mean. But I guess that would be a bad example, cause you'd just turn around and that He'll wait to help us physically until just before we are about to die for Him. But anyway, I gotta go, and I can't wait to see your answers.

Later,
~Wes~
 
  • #77
Oh by the way, there are millions of people that are praying for the people of Bosnia, and everywhere else that there are lost and injured people, especially during this time of crisis. We do care, it's just that so many of us have no way to be able to get over there and help. That's what the Salvation army, Samaritin's Purse(they're based here in Boone, cool huh?), etc are for. I'll be and have been praying for those countries, and you.
 
  • #78
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]As for gentic mutations, first most of them are harmless, secondly only gentic mutations in the reproductive cells are passed on, so even if a creature suddenly has an advantageous mutation it is not going to pass on to the next generation unless it is in the reproductive cells.

im my example i gave, i was not refering to the genetic code that was not vital (AKA junk DNA) in wich most mutations take place, and thus are harmless. in was talking about interruptions of vital strands of DNA that regulate everything from the way yor cells manufacture protein to your height.

But, my statement that mutations that offer a marked advantage are incorperated all the time was wong
 
  • #79
In response to Dino:

In the bible is says that God stopped giving miracles to humans. He only offers guidance and only to those who really deserve it.
 
  • #80
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Starman @ Dec. 28 2004,8:12)]O.K,
Let me ask a question.
If god is real and loves people so much, where was he when my country was getting destroyed by evil men? Where was he when those same evil men killed babies by putting them on a barbecue? If he loves people so much, why did he let us suffer so much?
hundreds died in Bosnia during the war, and not once did God come to help us, he loves us so much he let us suffer and die.
And what about all those poor people in Asia that died from a Tsunami?
If god did it, I see he adores his people, he only triggered Tsunamis that killed over 20'000 people.
I see he adores his people.
And yet, the Bible always talks about how much god loves people and sacrificed his son to help us all.
And yet, he never helped us when the war was raging in Bosnia, and he conjured up tsunamis that killed thousands.(at least a few of you say he did)

Its also been proven that polar bears were once Brown bears, but some brown bears went North tot he Arctic region where there is much more snow and became white: They evolved and adapted to suit their new conditions.

Dino
Just my 0.0003

Where, then, does your sense of "evil" come from?

I agree with Wes on his paragraph. If there was no evil, mankind would have no need for God.



Edit: Another thing, you can't "prove" something happened-at least not to 100% certainty. Here's a little analogy to the way I look at it

Suppose you've got a barrel of apples. The person who gave them to you tell you they are all good apples. But how do you know? How can you find out?

Reach in and grab an apple...Sure enough...it is a nice looking apple...but you only pulled one apple.

Grab a few more-they are all good...but you still have only a few apples.

Suppose you pull 10 dozen good apples(and not one rotten apple)....which is a lot-but you can't be sure that they are all good. And you can't be sure that the next one you pull would be either good or rotten. The next one you pull could be a mango for all you know.













The only way to know would be to tip the barrel and remove all the apples

Now...in the real world(in this case science) is that possible?
 
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