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Where does everyone stand in regards to...

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  • #881
evolution is change in a species over time... obviously there not a new species. its not even a variety. its just a change as a result of adaptions to a enviorment. BUT some of the mecenisms of evolution are proved in this example. Isolate one of them and over time... who knows where adaptions will take them. A new species. Speciation, evolution is a organism adapting to their enviroment

But this couldnt happen at all without theaccording to some diehard creationists
 
  • #882
That, weather or not it will lead to a new species, is the first step of speciation. Thats my proof
 
  • #883
finch i was just pointing out that you were misusing the word evolution. but you cant truely say that they will evolve either they may just remain with the small differences that they have and still remain one species.

also part does not prove the whole, if you know what im saying, just because there are the mechinisms that evolutionists use to back up their theory does not prove the theory. The mechinism, which are independent of evolution could never result in a new speices, they could just keep changing the allel frequencies(micro-evolution) with in the natural variability of the species.
 
  • #884
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]finch i was just pointing out that you were misusing the word evolution. but you cant truely say that they will evolve either they may just remain with the small differences that they have and still remain one species.

exactly, i never said they were gonna be a new species! probably not!

BUT
But that one procecss if carried out in isolation, the process of adaption ,might result in a type that is too different to breed sucessfully with its parents. that would be a new species

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The mechinism, which are independent of evolution could never result in a new speices, they could just keep changing the allel frequencies(micro-evolution) with in the natural variability of the species.

Yes, it can, and it is not independant of evolution (MICRO-EVOLUTION, u said it urself). A whole species can change if one variable is more sucessfull than the others and in a extreme drought or something the less sucessful ones died out (see evolution theory)
 
  • #885
But also, what you say here can and does happen aswell
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]they could just keep changing the allel frequencies(micro-evolution) with in the natural variability of the species.

See Yew tree species, tough manyspecies are widely seperated, they are so similar that some consider them all one superspecies. but they have been isolated for many tousands of years so the alleal frequencies are all quite different
 
  • #886
but if they dont become a new species you ahve not observed evolution only adapation, which is independent of evolution.

Micro-evolution, as i stated before does not result in speciation, only the change in the allel frequency between generations, which does not necessarily result in new species.
 
  • #887
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]but if they dont become a new species you ahve not observed evolution only adapation, which is independent of evolution.

no, its not independant, not at all. to adapt, one must evolve,. that doesnt mean it will lead to a new species.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Micro-evolution, as i stated before does not result in speciation, only the change in the allel frequency between generations, which does not necessarily result in new species.


but it can. the yew are different enoufg that most botonists recognize them as spereate species

kultu, what do you know about macro- evolution? its not a condesending question, just a question
 
  • #888
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ Jan. 17 2005,5:50)]no, its not independant, not at all. to adapt, one must evolve,. that doesnt mean it will lead to a new species.
yes it is independent, adapting uses teh genetic variation that is present in the population, it does not require new gentic variations, as does evolution.

and yes i do understand macro-evolution. its the belief that genetic variations that are successful will continue to compile until the orginal species is significantly differnt than the species with the genetic variations.
 
  • #889
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Finch, i believe you are misusing the word evolution, the sparrows you mentioned are merely adapting to their enviroment, not evolving.
no he ain't. he's talking about micro-evolution (which I don't see how some people can believe, yet not believe in macro-evolution)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]alphawolf, where is this proof of speciation? i would like to see the evidence for it, because personally i have a feeling there is something missing in it
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
you want NATURAL selection?
"Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the specied interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved."
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]no, its not independant, not at all. to adapt, one must evolve,. that doesnt mean it will lead to a new species.
to evolve you must adapt too :p
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Micro-evolution, as i stated before does not result in speciation, only the change in the allel frequency between generations, which does not necessarily result in new species.
micro-evolution is what DRIVES macro-evolution. a cow doesn't suddenly become a bison overnight.
as far as I know there is no macro-evolution without micro-evolution.
macro is only a lot of micros :p
 
  • #890
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]yes it is independent, adapting uses teh genetic variation that is present in the population, it does not require new gentic variations, as does evolution
it can.
(note it can also be behavioral)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]orginal species is significantly differnt than the species with the genetic variations.
no... that the original species is not the same species as the new species. there are tons of very similar species that are almost indistinguishable.
 
  • #891
sorry alpha but those do not prove speciation to me, the first one only the male are sterile, so it does produce fertile offspring, second one of course they cant reproduce with the original stock they had a mutation that changed the reproductive cells(from your site, Note that polyploids are generally considered to be a separate "race" of the same species as the original stock), the last two examples are only cases of isolation therefore the possibility of interbreeding has not been tested, therefore you can not say they are independent species.

Sorry alphawolf but in my opinion those are pretty weak if not invalid proof of speciation.
 
  • #892
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 17 2005,6:23)]micro-evolution is what DRIVES macro-evolution. a cow doesn't suddenly become a bison overnight.
as far as I know there is no macro-evolution without micro-evolution.
macro is only a lot of micros :p
or so the theory goes.  There is no proof that the allel patterns wont just flucuate back and forth and produce on changes in the actual species.  therefore you can have mirco-evolution without ever having macro-evolution.

and yes with out micro there will be no macro theoretically.
 
  • #893
one or two weren't good examples but how about the goatsbeard, the primrose,
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The article is on page 22 of the February, 1989 issue of Scientific American. It's called "A Breed Apart." It tells about studies conducted on a fruit fly, Rhagoletis pomonella, that is a parasite of the hawthorn tree and its fruit, which is commonly called the thorn apple. About 150 years ago, some of these flies began infesting apple trees, as well. The flies feed an breed on either apples or thorn apples, but not both. There's enough evidence to convince the scientific investigators that they're witnessing speciation in action. Note that some of the investigators set out to prove that speciation was not happening; the evidence convinced them otherwise.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Analysis of contact between two chromosomal races of house mice in northern Italy show that natural selection will produce alleles that bar interracial matings if the resulting offspring are unfit hybrids. This is an important exception to the general rule that intermixing races will not tend to become separate species because the constant sharing of genes minimizes the genetic diversity requisite for speciation.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There is no proof that the allel patterns wont just flucuate back and forth and produce on changes in the actual species.
there is. fossils, homologous/analogous/vestigial structures, the cichlid fishes, speciation events, etc...
 
  • #894
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 17 2005,1:03)]and yes with out micro there will be no macro theoretically.
Not so much theoretically as logically. You need many small steps in order to produce one big leap.
 
  • #895
adaptaitons is micro evolution.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]the last two examples are only cases of isolation therefore the possibility of interbreeding has not been tested, therefore you can not say they are independent species.
But the mere fact that they are different at all is proof



[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There is no proof that the allel patterns wont just flucuate back and forth and produce on changes in the actual species


That happens too ,but not all the time. in that case the whole species changes.... thats marco-evolution. The whole nominate species could change, but the isolated stock could stay the same. Eventually the isolated stock might move back into the area of the nominate species and the wto would be seperate but live along side eachother.


When species colinize a island, two similar and closely related species on the same island could both be descended from seperate immigration waves of the same nominate species from the mainland. We have fossle and observed evvidence of this in the white-eye bird family. This one cartain species of that family wanders alot and often colinizes different ocenic islands(often as in a few thousand years intervles) The first wave of colonists adapts and changes enough so that it cant interbreed with the nominate species when a second wave of immigration comes. If the two resorce slightly different food sorces then the two will live side by side, changing.  The process can continue.... there is evedence of up to FOUR times a wave of one species has settled in with descenednts from one of its earlier colinizations. Dna testing shows witch came from the first wave and witch came from the last, so we know it happened
 
  • #896
The bigger birds here in the midwest, i recently saw these house sparrows de-hull black oil sunflower seeds. They aint supposed to be able to do that, hulled sunflowerseeds are supossed to be sparrow proof!!
mad.gif
no wonder i have to keep changing the pil feeder when theres only sparrows there
mad.gif
mad.gif
mad.gif
 
  • #897
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]no... that the original species is not the same species as the new species. there are tons of very similar species that are almost indistinguishable.

Indistinguishable EXTERNALLY

geneticly they are different enough to not be able to inbreed
 
  • #898
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 17 2005,7:14)]one or two weren't good examples but how about the goatsbeard, the primrose,
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The article is on page 22 of the February, 1989 issue of Scientific American. It's called "A Breed Apart." It tells about studies conducted on a fruit fly, Rhagoletis pomonella, that is a parasite of the hawthorn tree and its fruit, which is commonly called the thorn apple. About 150 years ago, some of these flies began infesting apple trees, as well. The flies feed an breed on either apples or thorn apples, but not both. There's enough evidence to convince the scientific investigators that they're witnessing speciation in action. Note that some of the investigators set out to prove that speciation was not happening; the evidence convinced them otherwise.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Analysis of contact between two chromosomal races of house mice in northern Italy show that natural selection will produce alleles that bar interracial matings if the resulting offspring are unfit hybrids. This is an important exception to the general rule that intermixing races will not tend to become separate species because the constant sharing of genes minimizes the genetic diversity requisite for speciation.
didnt see anything about the primrose, but teh goatsbeard it could be that only a certain pattern of gentics allows for a fertile hybrid and it took some time for the genes to fall right. Also i find any plant based argument weak due to the fact that even botonists will admit that assigning species to plants is very difficult and by no means perfect.

the fruit flies could merely be a case of habitat selection, there is no evidence for the fact that they cant interbreed. by that same logic you should find many differnt types of humans since there are often behavioral difference in what they see as a fit mate.

the mice, it says only if it is a unfit hybrid does the mating not work, therefore they could produce some offspring that are fretile which means they are not necesarrily a differnt species.
 
  • #899
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ Jan. 17 2005,9:21)]When species colinize a island, two similar and closely related species on the same island could both be descended from seperate immigration waves of the same nominate species from the mainland. We have fossle and observed evvidence of this in the white-eye bird family. This one cartain species of that family wanders alot and often colinizes different ocenic islands(often as in a few thousand years intervles) The first wave of colonists adapts and changes enough so that it cant interbreed with the nominate species when a second wave of immigration comes. If the two resorce slightly different food sorces then the two will live side by side, changing.  The process can continue.... there is evedence of up to FOUR times a wave of one species has settled in with descenednts from one of its earlier colinizations. Dna testing shows witch came from the first wave and witch came from the last, so we know it happened
cant interbreed or wont? first off there could easily be a case of founders effect here. They could also look for different things in a potential mate, especally if they fill different niches, but that does not make them different species, if that is so there should be about 500 species of rat present in the islands that europeans went to since they seemed to spread them like the plague.
 
  • #900
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]They aint supposed to be able to do that
maybe they evolved. LOL.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]didnt see anything about the primrose,
maybe if you actually read the links you would ROFLMAO... I know.. you could have just skipped it or something.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]but teh goatsbeard it could be that only a certain pattern of gentics allows for a fertile hybrid and it took some time for the genes to fall right.
huh? yeah and maybe I'm mickey mouse.(lol. I love saying that for some reason)
but it says there that the new species of goatsbeard can't interbreed with the other species so it doesn't matter why, they're different species!
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also i find any plant based argument weak due to the fact that even botonists will admit that assigning species to plants is very difficult and by no means perfect.
If two populations can't interbreed and yet the populations can interbreed within themselves, they're different species. It is only very diffucult when two populations are very different and yet they can interbreed. That happens quite a lot...
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]the mice, it says only if it is a unfit hybrid does the mating not work,
and that's why they're different species!!!
just like donkeys and horses can mate and have mules but they're different species because the mules are sterile.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]They could also look for different things in a potential mate, especally if they fill different niches, but that does not make them different species, if that is so there should be about 500 species of rat present in the islands that europeans went to since they seemed to spread them like the plague.
sexual isolation... part of evolution.
and they ARE different species because they can't interbreed, so they can't have fertile offspring.
 
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