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Thread: Where does everyone stand in regards to...

  1. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Finch @ Dec. 27 2004,11:53)]A_E there are so many variables that need to be taken into account that a simple coin toss does not provide a good example. Most mutations disrupt the genetic code in some way, and most are harfull, its not 50/50. Mostly, mutations that offer a marked atvantage over others are usually incorporated in time into a species gene pool
    i didn't say 50/50 i said wether it is 1% of 99% there IS a number and it is NOT casual as you have said. For your information, most aren't harmful, most are silent mutations. A human being undergoes hundreds of mutations per generation, Most not doing anything or being corrected before they are expressed. If all the mutations you have undergone in your lifetime where expressed you would be dead by now.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

  2. #66
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Dec. 27 2004,8:44)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 27 2004,11:35)]There's no need to get combative, AE. The facts may be in our face, but there is ample reason to doubt facts.
    If facts can be doubted, in comparison, faith shouldn't be a factor in determining our history. As many scientist would say to you and other creationists "where are the facts?". Faith is a weird thing to belive anything by and beliving faith over facts is illogical, in regards to science and anything else.
    Well, as a matter of fact, I'm not a Creationist (I'm not even Judeo-Christian,) I'm a firm believer in evolution, so much that I'm shelling out $15k a year to go to college to study evolutionary biology. However, I don't see what that has to do with it to begin with. But I am a scientist, and I'm a good one. I refuse to accept anything as concrete fact because that's what thinking scientifically is all about - exploring all possibilities. It might not be intuitive that we must rely on faith to believe in facts, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the case.
    If you explore the reasons that you take things to be fact, you will eventually come upon a point where you have no other choice but to justify yourself by saying, "Just because," or "Because that's how things happened in the past."
    We can't escape factoring faith into our conclusions about history, because it's the basis of all we have and know.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  3. #67
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Dec. 27 2004,9:01)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Finch @ Dec. 27 2004,11:53)]A_E there are so many variables that need to be taken into account that a simple coin toss does not provide a good example. Most mutations disrupt the genetic code in some way, and most are harfull, its not 50/50. Mostly, mutations that offer a marked atvantage over others are usually incorporated in time into a species gene pool
    i didn't say 50/50 i said wether it is 1% of 99% there IS a number and it is NOT casual as you have said. For your information, most aren't harmful, most are silent mutations. A human being undergoes hundreds of mutations per generation, Most not doing anything or being corrected before they are expressed. If all the mutations you have undergone in your lifetime where expressed you wouldn't go past your 5th birthday.
    You're mixing two uses of the word mutation.
    While mutations do occur in the DNA of estabilished cells while we live out our lives, these are not mutations that lead to evolution. These mutations just change how our cells work. Unless they occur in one of the gonadal stem cells which divides to produce gametes (sperm/ovas,) they will not be passed on to your offspring.
    The mutations that effect your offspring occur when you are concieved, as the individual chromasomes in the gametes pair off and cross over. The RNA compounds which zip these chromasomes together sometimes snag extra alelles into the mix, and that's where mutations come from. These mutations are much rarer, and a vast majority of the time, they are deleterious (harmful enough to prevent conception or maturation.)
    In addition, so many other things factor in to what makes a mutation beneficial or deleterious - it is near impossible to assign a regular value to the probability of such mutations, unless you are talking about a particular instance with no variable conditions. Even if you could derive a probability, there's no assurance that two samples of the ratio of beneficial/deleterious would look at all the same. It is entirely possible that a coin with equal odds of landing heads versus tails turn up heads on every toss - just not probable.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  4. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 28 2004,12:02)]Well, as a matter of fact, I'm not a Creationist (I'm not even Judeo-Christian,) I'm a firm believer in evolution, so much that I'm shelling out $15k a year to go to college to study evolutionary biology. However, I don't see what that has to do with it to begin with. But I am a scientist, and I'm a good one. I refuse to accept anything as concrete fact because that's what thinking scientifically is all about - exploring all possibilities. It might not be intuitive that we must rely on faith to believe in facts, but that doesn't mean that it isn't the case.
    If you explore the reasons that you take things to be fact, you will eventually come upon a point where you have no other choice but to justify yourself by saying, "Just because," or "Because that's how things happened in the past."
    We can't escape factoring faith into our conclusions about history, because it's the basis of all we have and know.
    Capisco

    I agree, faith might be something to take into account but when it become the basis of anything logical or define anything... well... it can't. Faith isn't good ground to stand on, facts are a better foundation. Creationisnt on the other hand think their "faith" that a "god" created all the animals is true over the theory of evolution when evolution is based on fact, and evidence. I don't understand creationists.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

  5. #69

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    First let me say i think its very interesting how you hard line evoluntionist are taking such a literalist apporach to interperting the bible, a more literal approach then most people who believe inteh bible.

    Second let me say about all your scientific proof, if given enough time there will always be an annomoly, taking the coin fliping as an example(because its easy) if you flip it enough times you will eventually have the coin land on it side, which destroys the consistence of the method. Also at one time science "proved" the world was flat and well i dont think anybody believes that any more.

    Third i dont remember any part of the bible that lists all the creatures on earth, i dont remember any rattle snakes in the bible but i also dont recall any part where it says, here are all the things god created and thats it, i mean that would have created one hell of a big book if they listed every creature.

    As for gentic mutations, first most of them are harmless, secondly only gentic mutations in the reproductive cells are passed on, so even if a creature suddenly has an advantageous mutation it is not going to pass on to the next generation unless it is in the reproductive cells.

    and as a closing remark, all the words, interpretations, and believes of man are failable. To take either the bible or the theory of evolution as unquestionably true makes a person a fool, im not saying that you cant believe in only one or the other, but not keeping an open mind, especally those of you who call yourselves "scientists" is a very bad approach to life.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  6. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 28 2004,12:11)]You're mixing two uses of the word mutation.
    While mutations do occur in the DNA of estabilished cells while we live out our lives, these are not mutations that lead to evolution. These mutations just change how our cells work. Unless they occur in one of the gonadal stem cells which divides to produce gametes (sperm/ovas,) they will not be passed on to your offspring.
    The mutations that effect your offspring occur when you are concieved, as the individual chromasomes in the gametes pair off and cross over. The RNA compounds which zip these chromasomes together sometimes snag extra alelles into the mix, and that's where mutations come from. These mutations are much rarer, and a vast majority of the time, they are deleterious (harmful enough to prevent conception or maturation.)
    In addition, so many other things factor in to what makes a mutation beneficial or deleterious - it is near impossible to assign a regular value to the probability of such mutations, unless you are talking about a particular instance with no variable conditions. Even if you could derive a probability, there's no assurance that two samples of the ratio of beneficial/deleterious would look at all the same. It is entirely possible that a coin with equal odds of landing heads versus tails turn up heads on every toss - just not probable.
    ~Joe
    I realize, in the begging i meant mutations that occur during meiosis (sex cells). (when i was talking about probability)
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

  7. #71
    Let's positive thinking! seedjar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Dec. 27 2004,9:16)]Faith isn't good ground to stand on, facts are a better foundation.
    And it would be swell if we had pure, real facts, but really the closest thing that we have to a fact is that all facts depend on faith in consistency. Certainly, a belief based on former experience is better - practically speaking - for making decisions. But, it is still based on the faith that our former experiences can help us make decisions about the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Creationisnt on the other hand think their "faith" that a "god" created all the animals is true over the theory of evolution when evolution is based on fact, and evidence. I don't understand creationists.
    I don't think that many educated Creationists feel that they have the same kind of facts that people talk about when making scientific derivations. When a person says, "I believe that Creation is correct because I have faith in the Bible," they are saying that they are trusting the Bible's account of the matter, without requiring evidence or fact. If they had evidence, they wouldn't give it such a (relatively) weak label as faith.
    ~Joe
    o//~ Livin' like a bug ain't easy / My old clothes don't seem to fit me /
    I got little tiny bug feet / I don't really know what bugs eat /
    Don't want no one steppin' on me / Now I'm sympathizin' with fleas /
    Livin' like a bug ain't easy / Livin' like a bug ain't easy... o//~

  8. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Dec. 28 2004,12:25)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Dec. 27 2004,9:16)]Faith isn't good ground to stand on, facts are a better foundation.
    And it would be swell if we had pure, real facts, but really the closest thing that we have to a fact is that all facts depend on faith in consistency. Certainly, a belief based on former experience is better - practically speaking - for making decisions. But, it is still based on the faith that our former experiences can help us make decisions about the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Creationisnt on the other hand think their "faith" that a "god" created all the animals is true over the theory of evolution when evolution is based on fact, and evidence. I don't understand creationists.
    I don't think that many educated Creationists feel that they have the same kind of facts that people talk about when making scientific derivations. When a person says, "I believe that Creation is correct because I have faith in the Bible," they are saying that they are trusting the Bible's account of the matter, without requiring evidence or fact. If they had evidence, they wouldn't give it such a (relatively) weak label as faith.
    ~Joe
    Logic is a better word. Scientists base their facts on their logic.. 1 and 1 make 2.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

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