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  1. #729

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    So nepenthes evolved from a mutant plant that all of a sudden put out a wierd formation that happened to be able to absorb nutrients. Somehow, that's no perfect logic to me!

    Peter
    the cellist

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    This is a conversation that many of you will have over and over throughout your life. You may find, as I have, that your opinion will evolve (heh, heh..) a bit one way or the other.

    When you experience the birth of a child or the end of your rope, you may feel moved by a power that needs no explanation. This is faith. Faith is something that is actively sought. Real Faith is personal, it will never be handed to you or forced upon you. Faith needs no proof. How do you prove that love exists? I have faith that it does. I see it in the faces of my children every day.

    I am in a science field. I have worked with science my whole life, and I love it. I do very much believe in evolution, and I do very much believe in a Higher Power. One does not exist to disprove the other.

    This has been a circular argument and always will be. Evolution can be approached through science. Faith can not. Try not to get them confused.

    Steve
    Steve L
    "I'm Lucky enough to get paid to do this!"

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    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 12 2005,10:28)]So nepenthes evolved from a mutant plant that all of a sudden put out a wierd formation that happened to be able to absorb nutrients. Somehow, that's no perfect logic to me!
    To be honest, comments like this do more to demonstrate that you don't know how evolution works, rather than adding weight to the creationist argument. A strawman of evolution is not evolution.

    Not wanting to learn about it is fine... there are plenty of things I'm not intereted in learning about... but I would think that learning about something would be a prerequisite to trying to convice others that it isn't true.

  4. #732

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,6:57)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 12 2005,12:30)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,12:54)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 11 2005,6:51)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 11 2005,11:12)]You can't fully belive in religion and evolution... maybe parts of both if twisted and blended to the persons liking.. but not both in their entireties.
    Why not, i am yet to see anything that excludes all religion in evolution or vice versa, some religions say that you cant believe in evolution, and some religions believe things that conflict with evolution but not all religions and evolution clash
    You cannot fully belive both. Some parts of evolution contradict creationism and visa versa.
    where does evolution say there is no god/higher being? i dont ever remember that coming up in all my study of evolution. some religions yes i can see a conflict in but you cant say that all religions conflict with evolution
    No religion fully couples with evolution.

    Period.

    Do you know one that does?
    Have you studied every religion that is out there? i have not but know that some of the nature based religions do not have any conflicts with the theory of evolution as long as people dont add the origin of life into which does not belong with evolution. Also there are an amazing number of religions out there and like Est his does, just because it may not be a main stream religion does not make it false or not a religion.

    And just so you know many of the animalistic religions of africa have creation stories that sound very much like evolution(eg humans coming from orangutans)
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  5. #733

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]To be honest, comments like this do more to demonstrate that you don't know how evolution works, rather than adding weight to the creationist argument. A strawman of evolution is not evolution.
    This is not my opinion of evolution, this is just an example of how evolution must work according to what y'all have been saying. How do you propose nepenthes evolved? By slowly but surely developing a more and more complex formation off of its petiole until finally some of the plants managed to trap and digest insects?

    Peter
    the cellist

  6. #734

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 12 2005,10:28)]So nepenthes evolved from a mutant plant that all of a sudden put out a wierd formation that happened to be able to absorb nutrients. Somehow, that's no perfect logic to me!

    Peter
    It didn't evolve from a mutated plant. uggh....

    Let's say plant A lives in a nutrient poor environment. (its not carnivorous yet). Let's say the next generation (although it might not happen so quickly) Has a feature that traps insects on its leaves. It absorbs the dying insects nutrients. Because of this it grow bigger and when it reproduces it passes on that trait. This puts them at an advantage to the other plants of the same specie. A few generations down the plant is populated everywhere and because of this advantage the plants of the species that dont possess the trait die off or are very rare.

    Now.
    Let's say the plant with the "bug absorbing" trait continues evolving and evolves to have cup shaped ends on its leaves. And so on and so forth. Its a very long process.
    The thing is that there are always going to be all kinds of mutations. Its all about the mutation fitting into what the plant requires.

    In case you don't get me yet heres another example.

    Let's say there is 1 species of humans with 3 different kinds of mutations. humans a b and c

    Human A is slightly more muscular than the rest
    Human B has slightly better hearing than the rest
    Human C has better eyesight than the rest

    Now. Depending on the environment these 3 humans are placed, the trait will prove benefitial.

    Environment 1:
    Let's say we put humans A B and C in the Forest. In order for them to build shelter and catch food they need strenght and higher muscularity. Human A will do very good in this environment and attact attention from the opposite sex and spread that trait around. Humans B and C don't benefit from this environment. They might either die off or live in very small quantities.

    Environment 2:
    Now. Let's say we put humants A B and C in the plains. There are predators lurking and one must have good hearing in order to dodge and escape them. Human B will benefit from this environment. Humans A and C will probably die off or live in very small amounts. Human B will dominate and reproduce more than A and C.

    Environment 3:
    Lastly, let's say that we place humans A B and C in a safari. You need to have good eyesight to spot predators from far off. Human C will benefit from this environment and A and B will die off.

    You catch my drift.

    Depending on the environment and the trait, it will be accepted into the species and dominate. After that trait dominates, the ones without that trait die off. After everyone in the species has that trait from there branch off other traits that may or may not be accepted.

    The process is slow may take thousands of years.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

  7. #735

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 12 2005,11:58)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,6:57)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 12 2005,12:30)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 12 2005,12:54)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Jan. 11 2005,6:51)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 11 2005,11:12)]You can't fully belive in religion and evolution... maybe parts of both if twisted and blended to the persons liking.. but not both in their entireties.
    Why not, i am yet to see anything that excludes all religion in evolution or vice versa, some religions say that you cant believe in evolution, and some religions believe things that conflict with evolution but not all religions and evolution clash
    You cannot fully belive both. Some parts of evolution contradict creationism and visa versa.
    where does evolution say there is no god/higher being? i dont ever remember that coming up in all my study of evolution. some religions yes i can see a conflict in but you cant say that all religions conflict with evolution
    No religion fully couples with evolution.

    Period.

    Do you know one that does?
    Have you studied every religion that is out there? i have not but know that some of the nature based religions do not have any conflicts with the theory of evolution as long as people dont add the origin of life into which does not belong with evolution. Also there are an amazing number of religions out there and like Est his does, just because it may not be a main stream religion does not make it false or not a religion.

    And just so you know many of the animalistic religions of africa have creation stories that sound very much like evolution(eg humans coming from orangutans)
    Religion which follows the bible contradicts with evolution.

    Is there a religion that doesn't use the bible?
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

  8. #736
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Is there a religion that doesn't use the bible?
    Dude, there is only ONE that does....Christianity. All other don't use the Bible....
    Judiasm uses the Torrah,
    Musslims follow the Koran
    and many religions don't even have a singular text.
    17 Nash Rd.
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