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  1. #745
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Steve L @ Jan. 12 2005,4:44)]Steve
    I had one more point I wanted to add to this. Most of the problems you run into with comparisons between biblical creation and what we accept as evolutional development has to do with the literal translation of the Bible. If you look at the way creation unfolds in Genesis, the pattern is not unlike the pattern we hold for evolution. Separation of earth and sky, life in water before land, the order of creation follows our best scenario of evolution. The big difference is TIME. Why do we have to be so literal with the bible? I believe the bible should be used as a tool for faith, not a tool for science. The bible is full of contradictions when taken word for word. Eye for an eye or turn the other cheek? Noah was over 400 years old, and creation took place in 6 days. Don't get so caught up in literal time.

    I believe that Jesus died to take away my sin, NOT MY MIND.

    When I want to research science I look to recent information. When I want a guide for faith I look to the bible. Would you use a 2000 year old medical text for modern day surgery?

    Steve[/QUOTE]
    Agreed! The Biblical account of creation wasn't from the perspective of a scientific document. It was simply stating that God created. Further, when people get hung up on the two descriptions of creation, it was simply the author's intent to go from general creation to a more specific description of humanity. Many people get can't see the forest for the trees, missing the point of an account.

    Some things are literal and some are figurative / metaphor. Yet others are prophetic, poetic, historical, theological. We have to look at the big picture.

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    Sorry for the confusion. If the genus developed step by step, and plants with very primitive pitcher forms died out, why isn't glabrata dying out when there is a fanged species in the same habitat? Probably because there is plenty of room, and there are plenty of bugs. So there is no reason for glabrata to die out, and no reason for plants earlier in the evolution process to die out.

    Peter
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  3. #747
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 12 2005,7:05)]Sorry for the confusion. If the genus developed step by step, and plants with very primitive pitcher forms died out, why isn't glabrata dying out when there is a fanged species in the same habitat? Probably because there is plenty of room, and there are plenty of bugs. So there is no reason for glabrata to die out, and no reason for plants earlier in the evolution process to die out.
    Glabrata is succeeding so every nepenthes species that ever existed in history should have succeeded? Does extinction not exist in the creationist reality?

  4. #748

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]When you experience the birth of a child or the end of your rope, you may feel moved by a power that needs no explanation. This is faith.
    I call it hopeful thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]How do you prove that love exists? I have faith that it does.
    Because love is an emotion and you can feel it. You can also figure out the hormones that cause love/pleasure/etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]and I do very much believe in a Higher Power. One does not exist to disprove the other.
    Evolution does not disprove a higher power in any way. It does not explain what happens when we die, it does not say religions are wrong, etc. AE, you might think it's not compatible with ANY religion (I don't think it is... aldough I do think that if you take what the bible says as true it is... along with other religios books) but evolution has nothing to do with religion. It only says that all modern organisms have a common ancestor and that species become other species through natural selection. That is all evolution is. There are arguments over how it happens etc. but It is all still evolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]So why aren't species like glabrata dying off now that there's nepenthes hamata in the same habitat?
    why should they?
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]what we accept as evolutional development has to do with the literal translation of the Bible. If you look at the way creation unfolds in Genesis, the pattern is not unlike the pattern we hold for evolution.
    oh yes it is. besides obvious things like plants coming before the sun, The earth was dark and void at first (the earth came before the sun), water came before land,
    (before the sun is created... yet there was already light..)
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb
    yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his
    kind, whose seed is in itself,
    ...whose seed was in
    itself, after his kind:
    that to me says that grass was CREATED and not evolved... and that things only come from the same things... so evolution can't take place
    then AFTER the earth was created and there was light,
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the
    day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars
    also.
    then apparently he divided night and day yet AGAIN. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/confused.gif[/img]
    then fish and birds were created (first came fish, then land animals like reptiles, and THEN birds...)
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature
    after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the
    earth after his kind: and it was so.
    so first came fish and birds, then land animals...
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
    likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
    and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
    all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
    upon the earth.
    ... no wonder people think they're the best next thing next to god.
    doesn't it say later that god created man from dust? well, that doesn't seem like evolution to me now does it?
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Why do we have to be so literal with the bible?
    because the bible says it is the truth and you can't just dismiss whole stories it says are true (adam and eve, the noah's flood, the creation story) and selectively believe what suits you. (can you say "people ignore facts that are inconvenient to them & believe ideas that are convenient to them"?)
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Some things are literal and some are figurative / metaphor. Yet others are prophetic, poetic, historical, theological. We have to look at the big picture.
    where do you draw the line? many "metaphors" or "poems" etc. are presented to you as truth. like I said you can't just select which ones you want to believe and which ones you don't The bible says it is true so you either believe what it says is true or not.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
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    Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything

  5. #749

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    No. A lot of species survival depends on Natural disasters/conditions (see Nep. Viking thread). Hardiness via genetic mutation allows more species diversity and higher survival rates for some species. Why is N. khaniana so hardy and another species so hard to grow? Because of genetic mutation/evolution allowed that one plant to fit in a nich. In the present Nep debate perhaps one species can survive with fewer bugs, or less light, or less water, or catches fewer but bigger bugs. Like Darwin's finches one species could develop a large opening (lowii for example) to catch large nitrogen rich deposits and another species a small opening (Aristolichioides, I believe) to catch smaller insects.

  6. #750

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
    and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he
    had made.
    so if the days are actually eons... we are still on that seventh day... so he ended being with us? or is this another day? or did he take a break (why the hell does a perfect being need a break anyway? he gets tired? GASP!) for just a little while and then came back?
    and apparently all organisms (except adam and eve? it says they could get meat from them...) were vegetarians... another conflict with evolution...
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole
    face of the ground.
    people it say it didn't rain before the flood (and there were no rainbows)... God broke the laws of nature yet again.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground
    this is what I meant.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of
    the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    002:017 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
    not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
    shalt surely die.
    why the heck did he put the tree of knowledge there in the first place? How did adam/eve know that they shouldn't disobay god (after all, he talks in many metaphors and riddles doesn't he? LOL) if they were just ignorant fools that don't know right from wrong since they haven't eaten the fruit?

    but I guess that's not really the creation story any more :P
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
    A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it
    Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything

  7. #751

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Like Darwin's finches one species could develop a large opening (lowii for example) to catch large nitrogen rich deposits and another species a small opening (Aristolichioides, I believe) to catch smaller insects.
    besides doesn't lowii get it's nutrients from bird poop?

    We aren't really sure how carnivorous plants evolved because plants are extremely rare to fossilize.

    and like they've said before, the two species can coexist in the same environment. It doesn't matter how simple or complex they are (why aren't bacteria dead? they're trillions of times more simple than a sloth), if they can survive in the same environment, they will.
    Whole species don't evolve and the old ones die out, populations evolve and if the old ones can still survive then they survive too :P
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
    wikipedia rocks! (except for species info)(CPers-add your vast knowledge of CPs to wikipedia&#33
    A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it
    Get all the fools on your side and you can be elected to anything

  8. #752

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Steve L @ Jan. 12 2005,4:44)]I had one more point I wanted to add to this. Most of the problems you run into with comparisons between biblical creation and what we accept as evolutional development has to do with the literal translation of the Bible. If you look at the way creation unfolds in Genesis, the pattern is not unlike the pattern we hold for evolution. Separation of earth and sky, life in water before land, the order of creation follows our best scenario of evolution. The big difference is TIME. Why do we have to be so literal with the bible? I believe the bible should be used as a tool for faith, not a tool for science. The bible is full of contradictions when taken word for word. Eye for an eye or turn the other cheek? Noah was over 400 years old, and creation took place in 6 days. Don't get so caught up in literal time.
    There are a million different ways that you can translate or decode the bible, which is obvious by all the different religions there are. Science dismisses it because of that. (Among other things)
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

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