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Thread: Where does everyone stand in regards to...

  1. #769
    Copper's Avatar
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    Amen, brother. Study both, learn more and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
    I am just like a Super Hero, but without the power or motivation.................and the funky suit.

  2. #770

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]OK. Try to get this straight, i don't know whats not being clear to you.

    I am not talking about competition between species, i'm talking about one species developing within itself.

    Do you mean a subspecies or cultivar or something? If you expect all of them to die out in one shot you are wrong. Evolution doesn't function that way.
    I mean the genus nepenthes. Why have all the more "primitive" forms been dying out? I don't think there's a lack of space, or a lack of bugs. If there were, only n. hamata, which can keep more insects in the pitcher because of the fangs, and is therefore farther along in evolution, would survive. And n. glabrata would die out. Since hamata and glabrata coexist with plenty of room and food to spare, why aren't we seeing primitive nepenthes as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I just cant believe that GOD believes there is only one true religion!
    He has to be far more understanding than that..
    I beleive we have already discussed a perfect god. A perfect god does not just try to be nice to everybody. Rightiousness goes hand in hand with justice. Any court that frees the guilty without restitution is not perfect. It's corrupt!


    Peter
    the cellist

  3. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 13 2005,4:46)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]I just cant believe that GOD believes there is only one true religion!
    He has to be far more understanding than that..
    I beleive we have already discussed a perfect god. A perfect god does not just try to be nice to everybody. Rightiousness goes hand in hand with justice. Any court that frees the guilty without restitution is not perfect. It's corrupt!


    Peter
    I dont mean God should be nice to those who do not deserve it..
    im not talking about "the guilty"..
    im talking about very good people who happen to not be Christian..

    Scot

  4. #772
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    And this is all assuming 'good' and 'evil' even exist in the cosmic arena.

  5. #773

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 13 2005,10:46)]I mean the genus nepenthes. Why have all the more "primitive" forms been dying out? I don't think there's a lack of space, or a lack of bugs. If there were, only n. hamata, which can keep more insects in the pitcher because of the fangs, and is therefore farther along in evolution, would survive. And n. glabrata would die out. Since hamata and glabrata coexist with plenty of room and food to spare, why aren't we seeing primitive nepenthes as well?
    There are some things you need to understand. First off animals/plants grouped into a genus are very closely related and ALL share something that makes them to be grouped in that genus. Even if the "primitive" (as you say) nepenthes is still around, it wouldn't be grouped into the genus nepenthes since it isn't a nepenthes!
    This comes back to a very popular question: "What came first? The chicken or the egg?"
    A chicken was laid by a chicken like ancestor and the offspring became the chicken.
    Nepenthes' origins aren't from other Nepenthes. The genus nepenthes branched off from another organism.

    Now.

    The fact that there are no primitave nepenthes around means that the nepenthes that are populating the earth now prooved better suited to surviving.
    For example:
    Let's go back into a time when (hypothetically) both "primitive" nepenthes and our "modern day" nepenthes coexisted. There are many things that can test if a specie is suitable for survival.
    Natural disasters, disease, and competition being some of them. Modern day nepenthes where probably better at what they do (which is feeding off of insects and attracting them). Primitive nepenthes where probably just too "new" evolutionary wise to fit that niche, and when the new nepenthes came along, it dominated.

    Like the plant version of neanderthals vs. cro-magnons.

    Also, just because now there are plenty of insects around doesn't mean that primitive nepenthes shoudl still be here. It might have been much different back then.
    You should google the history of the location of those nepenthes to check if what you are saying is actually true for back then when primitive nepenthes where around.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

  6. #774
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 13 2005,10:46)]I mean the genus nepenthes. Why have all the more "primitive" forms been dying out? I don't think there's a lack of space, or a lack of bugs. If there were, only n. hamata, which can keep more insects in the pitcher because of the fangs, and is therefore farther along in evolution, would survive. And n. glabrata would die out. Since hamata and glabrata coexist with plenty of room and food to spare, why aren't we seeing primitive nepenthes as well?
    Species extinction isn't at all uncommon. It's thought that 99.9% of all the species that ever lived are extinct (no, they didn't all live at the same time), and there may be as many as 100 million species alive right now.

    I can't speak to the history of Nepenthes (I'd like to know more about it's earlier forms, actually), but I think it's reasonable to deduce that less than 1% of all the Nepenthes/pre-Nepenthes species that ever lived are still alive (I guess the pre-Nepenthes would be 0% at this point unless anybody knows of some). And these extinctions include a massive number of highly successful species I'm sure. History is full of climate shifts, disasters, you name it... nature is harsh. You know how delicate some of these plants are.

    It would be a mistake to focus on just this one plant in this argument. You don't even have to leave the realm of CP's to find species where older forms are still entirely successful. I don't know the exact lineage (I think there's a thread on it somewhere)... this is very rough and simplistic... but helis may have resulted from pings... sarrs from helis... darlingtonia from sarrs... that sort of thing. Yet all of those plants are still around and doing ok (at least before we showed up). I'm sure I'm going to be corrected repeatedly on the real progressions.

    And outside of the CP realm... this is a very small list (we know of over 500) of some of the species out there that have remained mostly unchanged for the past 50-500 million years: coelacanth fish, neopilina mollusks, tuataras, ginkgo trees, alligators, lice, cicadas, nautiluses, horseshoe crabs, army ants, green sturgeons, wollemi pines, cockroaches, velvet worms, cycads, triops, emperor dragonflies, lungfish ... and of course there are all those microscopic lifeforms like bacteria that are still around. Do any of these species have evolutionary branches coming off of them? I don't have time to research all of them right now, but I'm willing to bet I'd find some (someone else want to lift the burden off me a bit here?). Oddly these old species are brought up by creationists a lot as if they prove a point somehow... and you're asking about them as evolutionary evidence.

    Anyway... I'm running out of rambling time here. I'd still like to hear what creationists have to say about the extinction point I brought up a couple pages ago. I don't think I'm going to get a response (like most of the serious questions I've brought up in the past). [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_h_32.gif[/img]

  7. #775
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    Anyone notice the recent news story from Atlanta? A federal judge just made the public school system remove stickers from the bio text books that said evolution is a theory, not a fact.

    Nice.

    Incidently, gravity is a theory, not a fact, too.
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    YOU! Outta my gene pool!

  8. #776

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    Thats interesting. Well at least we are making progress (Well the scientists side). My dream job would be to work on evolutionary theory. Refining it and connecting different families, genus's and groups of living organisms

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