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  1. #785
    endparenthesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Treaqum @ Jan. 13 2005,4:55)]On that point (in another magizine and article) scientists are considering spliting Humans into two subspecies or varities based on characteristics even though both are compatible (able to reproduce with each other).
    Hmm... whole new uncharted frontiers of prejudice for people to explore... I can hardly wait. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile_t_32.gif[/img]

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Jan. 13 2005,4:59)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 13 2005,7:32)]Jim:
    Ever heard of Mary Magdalene? What do you think?
    I sure have. Something tells me that there is a question behind the question. I'll bite... why do you ask about her?

    BTW.... how 'bout them Mets for reeling in Martinez & Beltran!
    Well if you have you've probably (certainly) heard of the not so known supposed truth behind her significance in Jesus' life?

    Exactly how much do you know about her?
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

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    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (scottychaos @ Jan. 13 2005,7:52)]Jim,
    yes, I know of that particular quote from Jesus,
    and I understand what it means..
    but..
    millions of people have died without ever having been aware of Jesus or Christianity..through no fault of their own.
    I just cant believe that they would be punished because they were born 5,000 years before the birth of Christ,
    or because they died before they ever even heard about the Bible or Jesus..
    I just cant believe God would work that way..
    He would have to be far more fair than that.

    If you happen to be born into a Christian family, and you know "the rules"..and then later in life you choose to reject Jesus..then fine, maybe then you had the opportunity for salvation and turned it down..
    but kids born into Muslim families in the middle east cant very well say "hey Mom and dad, and suicide-bomber brother, I heard about this Jesus guy, I think christianity is the better way to go than Islam, im going to become a Christian"..
    they cant DO that!
    any more than you could convert to Islam.
    its not in their culture, its not in their upbringing..
    sure, some do maybe, I know many people born into other religions DO convert to Christianity..
    but many people born into Christian homes also convert to Islam, or bhuddism, or Wicca, or whatever..
    I just cant believe that GOD believes there is only one true religion!
    He has to be far more understanding than that..

    and! here is a cool theological question for you (or anyone)..
    (this only from a Christian point of view)
    why is it absolutely necessary to accept Jesus in THIS short lifetime?
    Say someone is 15 years old, they have just joined a chuch, and are just beginning to learn "the word"..but they have not fully understood or accepted everything yet..(and lest face it, there is a lot to absorb! you cant just say "I accept Jesus" without a good deal of education first!)
    so this kid has just started on his christian path..
    the day after attending his first church service he dies in a car accident!
    He wasnt "born again"..He hadnt yet got to the point of accepting Christianity or Jesus..
    is God going to say "oh, so sorry! you had the chance! you didnt accept my Son! sorry, its off to hell for you"
    NO! of course He would never do that!
    So..if one believe that, then it must be possible to accept Jesus as your savior AFTER you die!
    why couldnt that 15 year old kid continue his spiritual developement AFTER death?
    I see no reason why not..
    yet many christians say "nope..gotta accept it all fully BEFORE you die, thats the only way"..
    it CANT be the only way..

    So, maybe all these people that are of the "wrong" religion in life have the chance to repent after death!

    Scot
    Scott,

    I cut and pasted what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 1, concerning those who haven't been preached to (or at) by Christians:

    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "The one who is righteous will live by faith." F5 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth.

    19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21 for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23 and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, F6 insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    FOOTNOTES

    From Romans 10

    1 Brothers and sisters, F58 my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 I can testify that they have a zeal for God, but it is not enlightened. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they have not submitted to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that "the person who does these things will live by them." 6 But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or "Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because F59 if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. 11 The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."

    12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." 14 But how are they to call on one in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in one of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him? 15 And how are they to proclaim him unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all have obeyed the good news; F60 for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. F61 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have; for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." 19 Again I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, "I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry." 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me." 21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

    From Ezekiel 18:


    Ezekiel 18: 1 - 32 - Study This Chapter

    1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, "The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge"? 3 As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4 Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die. 5 If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right— 6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period, 7 does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 8 does not take advance or accrued interest, withholds his hand from iniquity, executes true justice between contending parties, 9 follows my statutes, and is careful to observe my ordinances, acting faithfully—such a one is righteous; he shall surely live, says the Lord God.

    10 If he has a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, 11 who does any of these things (though his father F49 does none of them), who eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, 13 takes advance or accrued interest; shall he then live? He shall not. He has done all these abominable things; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself. 14 But if this man has a son who sees all the sins that his father has done, considers, and does not do likewise, 15 who does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, 16 does not wrong anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17 withholds his hand from iniquity, F50 takes no advance or accrued interest, observes my ordinances, and follows my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, he dies for his iniquity. 19 Yet you say, "Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?" When the son has done what is lawful and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20 The person who sins shall die. A child shall not suffer for the iniquity of a parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own.

    21 But if the wicked turn away from all their sins that they have committed and keep all my statutes and do what is lawful and right, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that they have committed shall be remembered against them; for the righteousness that they have done they shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? 24 But when the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity and do the same abominable things that the wicked do, shall they live? None of the righteous deeds that they have done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which they are guilty and the sin they have committed, they shall die. 25 Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is unfair." Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair? 26 When the righteous turn away from their righteousness and commit iniquity, they shall die for it; for the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 27 Again, when the wicked turn away from the wickedness they have committed and do what is lawful and right, they shall save their life. 28 Because they considered and turned away from all the transgressions that they had committed, they shall surely live; they shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is unfair." O house of Israel, are my ways unfair? Is it not your ways that are unfair?

    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, all of you according to your ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions; otherwise iniquity will be your ruin. F51 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord God. Turn, then, and live.

    This answers what you ask, as well as what others have asked, albeit a lot webspace. Would you care to discuss this privately?

  4. #788
    Tropical Fish Enthusiast jimscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 13 2005,5:10)]Exactly how much do you know about her?
    I now the Biblical account of her and have read a little about her extra-biblical / mythical lore about her. I gather this is where you want to focus. I took the liberty to cut & paste a synopsis of the Biblical and mythical info about her:
    Mary Magdalene
    Mary Magdalene has been the object of devotion, curiosity, and misunderstanding for almost 2000 years. Most people today (and in many centuries past) would identify her as a reformed prostitute who became one of Jesus's followers. But nothing in the biblical record shows her to have been a prostitute. Rather, scholars today think that she was a woman with independent means who was one of Jesus's main followers and supporters and perhaps his closest disciple. Her characterization as a prostitute comes from her having been confused with other women mentioned in the canonical (that is, official biblical) sources.
    Mary is mentioned in all four canonical gospel accounts, where she appears as the first-named of Jesus's female followers and as the first to encounter Jesus after his resurrection. So the account in Mark, the earliest of the gospels (written ca. 70 C.E.), reads:

    There were also women looking on [at the crucifixion] from a distance; among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome. These used to follow him and provided for him when he was in Galilee; and there were many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem. When evening had come, and since it was the day of preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath, Joseph of Aramathea, a respected member of the council, who was also himself waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. . . . Then Joseph bought a linen cloth, and taking down the body, wrapped it in the linen cloth, and laid it in a tomb that had been hewn out of the rock. He then rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where the body was laid.

    When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb. They had been saying to one another, who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance to the tomb?" When they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had already been rolled back. As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. But he said to them, "Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you." So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. (Mk 15.40-43, 46-16.1-8).

    A later addition to Mark calls Mary Magdalene the woman "from whom [Jesus] had cast out seven demons" (16.9).
    John, probably the last of the gospels to be written (in the last decade of the first century), expands on the scene at the tomb:

    Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him." Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb. The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, and the cloth that had been on Jesus's head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. Then the disciples returned to their homes.

    But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb; and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet. They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.:" When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away." Jesus said to her, "Mary!" She turned and said to him in Hebrew, "Rabbouni!" (which means Teacher). Jesus said to her, "Do not yet hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"; and she told them that he had said these things to her. (Jn 20.1-18).
    The accounts in Matthew and Luke (both written probably in the 80s) also show Mary as the first to see the resurrected Jesus and the one who first told the news to the male disciples. Luke says "Now it was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the Mother of James, and the other women with them who told this to the apostles. But these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them" (Lk 24.10-22). Matthew's account has an angel who descends from heaven telling "Mary Magdalene and the other Mary":

    "Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples, `He has been raised from the dead, and indeed he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him.' This is my message for you." So they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them and said, "Greeting!" And they came to him, took hold of his feet, and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me" (Mt 28.1, 5-10).

    Because of her announcement of the resurrection to the other disciples, she was known in the ancient world as "the apostle to the apostles."
    But this characterization was soon superseded by the image of Mary as a reformed prostitute, a notion that arose because of a tendency to confuse Mary with other women in the gospel accounts, both other women named "Mary" (including Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Mary of Bethany) and unnamed women. The most influential confusion was with accounts of women who anointed Jesus (that is, poured oil on him, an action with ritual significance). Mark's account of this event goes like this:

    While he was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at the table, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very costly ointment of nard, and she broke open the jar and poured the ointment on his head. But some were there who said to one another in anger, "Why was the ointment wasted in this way? For this ointment could have been sold for more than three hundred denarii, and the money given to the poor." And they scolded her. But Jesus said, "Let her alone; why do you trouble her? She has performed a good service for me. For you always have the poor with you, and you can show kindness to them whenever you wish; but you will not always have me. She has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand for its burial. Truly I tell you, wherever the good news is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be told in remembrance of her" (Mk 14.3-9).

    John's account (12.1-8) provides a variation on this story, with Mary of Bethany, another of Jesus's followers, named as the woman who anoints Jesus's feet. In John's account, it is Judas, Jesus's betrayer, who complains about the waste of money.
    Luke's account, while clearly relying on the same source, changes many of its details, making the unnamed woman a "sinner," probably a euphemism for "prostitute":

    One of the Pharisees asked Jesus to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee's house and took his place at the table. And a woman in the city, who was a sinner, having learned that he was eating in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster jar of ointment. She stood behind him at his feet, weeping, and began to bathe his feet with her tears and to dry them with her hair. Then she continued kissing his feet and anointing them with the ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw it, he said to himself, "If this many were a prophet, he would have known who and what kind of woman this is who is touching him--that she is a sinner.:"[Jesus, who can read the Pharisee's mind, tells him a parable about forgiveness.] Then turning toward the woman, he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has bathed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which were many, have been forgiven; hence she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little." Then he said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." But those who were at the table with him began to say among themselves. "Who is this who even forgives sins?" And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace" (Lk 7.36-50).
    Mary Magdalene also appears in an important noncanonical gospel account--that is, a gospel, or the "good news," written early in the history of the Christian church but not accepted in the canon or official list of Christian scriptures. The Gospel of Mary was preserved by a community of Gnostic Christians, a group whose theology and christology differed significantly from that of other early groups of Christians, all of whom were competing in the first Christian centuries to establish their particular understanding of Jesus as the orthodox or "right-thinking" account. Some Gnostics had women leaders at a time when other Christian sects were becoming increasingly conservative about gender roles. The example of Mary Magdalene no doubt provided a justification for women's leadership roles among the Gnostics. It is not surprising, then, that these Christian communities preserved The Gospel of Mary. (Follow the link and read this ancient text.)
    This exalted image of Mary did not survive, however. Rather, the confusion of Mary Magdalene with other gospel women created a composite characterization of a reformed prostitute who came to be identified in Western art by the alabaster jar of costly ointment she always carried with her and often by a scourge or whip that she beat herself with as a penance for her sins which, in spite of the gospel accounts, never seemed to be forgiven. Her role as the apostle to the apostles was soon forgotten.

    Daily Syllabus


    Personally, I'd say was an excellent example of how a person recognized their sin and had a conversion experience. My guess is that you want to talk about the other.

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    On the scientific part about dividing humans. I do not think it has popular support because of the reasons you mentioned. I do not believe it will be addopted either because too much politics is involved in science. Also Religious groups will resist it because then their religious book may not be able to cope, persay, with two distinct human "varities".
    I did not read all 79 pages and have not been following this thread so it amazes me that anyone who hybridizes and crosses plants and trys to figure out how they are related (I am sure many more of us do then we admit) can not agree on evolution having happened. Whats the excuse for man-made hybrids? Did a god give you divine powers so that you could hybridize the plants?

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (herenorthere @ Jan. 12 2005,7:52)]The fundamental dispute between evolution and creation is in the difference between science and religion. So it doesn't matter if a particular African animist religion has a creation story that sounds quite a bit like evolution. Unless the story is updated as new information is learned, it isn't remotely like evolution theory. I think such things should be taught in school. As Anthropology, not Science.
    ah first off Anthropology is science. secondly where did the school thing come frome.

    i was just using that religion as an example of how some religions have beliefs that would not contradict with evolution.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Treaqum @ Jan. 13 2005,10:55)] On that point (in another magizine and article) scientists are considering spliting Humans into two subspecies or varities based on characteristics even though both are compatible (able to reproduce with each other). I do not remember the details except wisdom teeth were a minor difference, I think immunity to radiation was also.
    are you speaking of the differnces between homo sapien and homo sapien sapien. and yes there are a few differences. This is a whole new can of worms and is being hotly debated in the field of anthropology as to wether they are truely differnt or if they just represent the wide range of variability that humans exibit.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  8. #792

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    Jim:
    Have you seen The Last Supper lately? do a google and look at the "man" on jesus' right.
    They say if you play a Microsoft CD backwards, you hear satanic messages. Thats nothing, cause if you play it forwards, it installs Windows.

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