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Where does everyone stand in regards to...
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This thread has been going really well and i'd like to keep it going. But someone brought to my attention that some of the posts aren't really helpful. Maybe some rules should be implemented to organize this debate.
1. This thread is about Evolution vs. Creationism, nothing else.
2. Not more than one topic be debated at a time.
3. Each side gets equal number of questions (if an evolutionist gets a question, a creationist gets one after that one is through being debated)
4. Keep it friendly, we don't want the thread locked. Posts calling people "evil" or "ignorant" aren't acceptable. Let's try not to get personal. (i was hoping a moderator could help enforce this rule by editing posts containing those kinds of replys)
5. Let's keep it as "fact" based as possible. For evolutionist that would mean quoting scientific publications, experiments etc. For creationists that would mean quoting bible texts or other bible based books. Instead of posting a bunch of links, quote the information from the link in addition to providing it so that people that have just began reading the now 33 page thread don't have to keep clicking towards other websites.
1. This thread is about Evolution vs. Creationism, nothing else.
2. Not more than one topic be debated at a time.
3. Each side gets equal number of questions (if an evolutionist gets a question, a creationist gets one after that one is through being debated)
4. Keep it friendly, we don't want the thread locked. Posts calling people "evil" or "ignorant" aren't acceptable. Let's try not to get personal. (i was hoping a moderator could help enforce this rule by editing posts containing those kinds of replys)
5. Let's keep it as "fact" based as possible. For evolutionist that would mean quoting scientific publications, experiments etc. For creationists that would mean quoting bible texts or other bible based books. Instead of posting a bunch of links, quote the information from the link in addition to providing it so that people that have just began reading the now 33 page thread don't have to keep clicking towards other websites.
Hi Alpha Wolf,
God demonstrated his existence and love for you about 2,000 years ago at the cross. Whether or not you choose to come to a relationship with him is your choice. Like Wes said, Christianity is not about origins or creation V science/evolution, but a relationship. I notice you chose not to remark on my experiences?
God demonstrated his existence and love for you about 2,000 years ago at the cross. Whether or not you choose to come to a relationship with him is your choice. Like Wes said, Christianity is not about origins or creation V science/evolution, but a relationship. I notice you chose not to remark on my experiences?
It's assumed without question that God always existed and always will, but such a thing isn't possible for energy/matter?[b said:
Anyway... I'm just here to talk. Regulating this discussion is even more futile than trying to actually get a point across, I think. We'll have more posts trying to enforce some kind of structure than we do unhelpful posts already. If this is how the thread is going to be I'm no longer interested, personally.
Hi Alpha Wolf,
Just read another post from you on page 32. There are plenty of references for the existence of Jesus other than biblical references. Josephus, Titus and other historians at that time spoke about him. You also have to look at the lives of the Apostles (Jesus' followers) and why they chose to give up their own way of life to the point of being put to death for what they believed in. OK this last point is circumstantial, but once you have found out that Jesus did exist then the next thing is to look at his claims. He claimed to be the son of God. That leads to 3 possibilities: 1. Was he mad? 2. Was he evil and wanted to delude people? 3. He was telling the truth.
If you are curious to really find out the truth, then I urge you to investigate it for yourself. An 'Alpha' course would be a good place to start.
Back to the original topic, I believe that the Earth is appox. 4,500 million years old, there is enough geological evidence to support that one, but in no way does that conflict with the Bible. No where in the Bible does it say the earth is only 6,000 years old. The Hebrow word for 'Day' as translates into English can also mean age. As for evolution? Yes it could have happened that way, but one analogy one could use is 'science can explain the chemical composition, the technique of brush strokes for explaing a painting, but cannot explain the art'. The Genesis text was a pattern for Sabbath (Rest), Genesis 2 sets mankind's special relationship to God and how it became undone. This aside, one has to look at the style of writing. The Bible comprises of many individula books. Its written in the forms of letters, prophecy, law, history, literacy, song and poetry. Once one has established the context, the truth comes alive.
Just read another post from you on page 32. There are plenty of references for the existence of Jesus other than biblical references. Josephus, Titus and other historians at that time spoke about him. You also have to look at the lives of the Apostles (Jesus' followers) and why they chose to give up their own way of life to the point of being put to death for what they believed in. OK this last point is circumstantial, but once you have found out that Jesus did exist then the next thing is to look at his claims. He claimed to be the son of God. That leads to 3 possibilities: 1. Was he mad? 2. Was he evil and wanted to delude people? 3. He was telling the truth.
If you are curious to really find out the truth, then I urge you to investigate it for yourself. An 'Alpha' course would be a good place to start.
Back to the original topic, I believe that the Earth is appox. 4,500 million years old, there is enough geological evidence to support that one, but in no way does that conflict with the Bible. No where in the Bible does it say the earth is only 6,000 years old. The Hebrow word for 'Day' as translates into English can also mean age. As for evolution? Yes it could have happened that way, but one analogy one could use is 'science can explain the chemical composition, the technique of brush strokes for explaing a painting, but cannot explain the art'. The Genesis text was a pattern for Sabbath (Rest), Genesis 2 sets mankind's special relationship to God and how it became undone. This aside, one has to look at the style of writing. The Bible comprises of many individula books. Its written in the forms of letters, prophecy, law, history, literacy, song and poetry. Once one has established the context, the truth comes alive.
I'll answer Jeremiah's question: I don't know where matter came from, nor why time is how we experience it. I do not believe, however, that it's sufficient to say that God created them, as that simply begs the question of who or what created God. To simply assert God is a "first cause" is also insufficient, as "first causes" are precluded by the notion all things need creation.
What makes the Biblical explanation less compelling as a scientific explanation is the lack of a scientific basis for any god or gods, much less the Christian God. One is simply skipping hundreds of thousands of steps ahead in proving something by assuming Biblical truth absent empircal or mathematical data.
Further complicating the assertion is the vast array of evidence of anancient earth, including human civilizations prior to the asserted date of origin.
Nevertheless, I don't believe science is able to provide an adequate explanation of the origins of matter at this time. One thing we know is that matter exists, though! LOL! In any case, the theories and facts surrounding evolution are based purely on observable, testable, and falsifiable hypotheses and data. This is the basis of scientific knowledge.
OK, my question for the young-earth proponents: Why would there be billions of fossils that all date to ancient dates, neatly arranged sequentially according to when they developed and inhabited earth?
For AE (I think, who asked before about observed speciation
Observed instances of speciation
Capslock
What makes the Biblical explanation less compelling as a scientific explanation is the lack of a scientific basis for any god or gods, much less the Christian God. One is simply skipping hundreds of thousands of steps ahead in proving something by assuming Biblical truth absent empircal or mathematical data.
Further complicating the assertion is the vast array of evidence of anancient earth, including human civilizations prior to the asserted date of origin.
Nevertheless, I don't believe science is able to provide an adequate explanation of the origins of matter at this time. One thing we know is that matter exists, though! LOL! In any case, the theories and facts surrounding evolution are based purely on observable, testable, and falsifiable hypotheses and data. This is the basis of scientific knowledge.
OK, my question for the young-earth proponents: Why would there be billions of fossils that all date to ancient dates, neatly arranged sequentially according to when they developed and inhabited earth?
For AE (I think, who asked before about observed speciation
Observed instances of speciation
Capslock
What about muhammed? he fits all of what you say.[b said:
yeah... thousands of years before I was born. I only have a book that to me is inconsistant and goes against science (unless I make some stuff a metaphor... how do I know which is which?)[b said:
Like I said, God made me a skeptic and he knows what it takes to make me a believer. I still haven't gotten anything that even proves to me there IS a god, let alone which god.
PS. That was me capslock
wow... thanks!
what more proof could anyone want?
Alpha wolf,
Muhammed was merely a 'prophet' in Islam, jesus was more than that. He set himself apart by claiming he was the way etc and other religious leaders tend to have the stance 'thats the way..'
God still does perform miracles and its only your point of view from interpreting the bible that goes against science. I see no conflict between science, geology and the bible at all.
Muhammed was merely a 'prophet' in Islam, jesus was more than that. He set himself apart by claiming he was the way etc and other religious leaders tend to have the stance 'thats the way..'
God still does perform miracles and its only your point of view from interpreting the bible that goes against science. I see no conflict between science, geology and the bible at all.
Evolution cannot be regarded has fact. After all it is only a theory, which might be possible but cannot be proven. And it is scientists only explanation if they refuse to beleive what is written in the Bible. Creationism can't be proved. However, I know for a fact that God exists, and if i denied that I would have to deny everything else I know as well. I don't just talk to a brick wall. He talks to me too, he guides me in whatever I do, and through him I know myself, and understand the purpose of my life.
God is not bound by science, as he created the world and everything in it. He works supernaturally as well as naturally. It's pretty simple if you are willing to beleive that you did not evolve from premordial slime.
Peter
Peter
God is not bound by science, as he created the world and everything in it. He works supernaturally as well as naturally. It's pretty simple if you are willing to beleive that you did not evolve from premordial slime.
Peter
Peter
Evolution is a fact. A scientifically provent fact. We KNOW for a FACT species EVOLVE (microevolution) the course that they take over long periods of time (macroevolution) is the theoretical aspect of evolution. The process in itself is fact.[b said:
God... talks to you? Are you sure it's god talking?
If you're looking for something hard enough, you will find it. Some people say that God appoints presidents and stuff. Well, don't WE have a choice? I mean... if HE appoints presidents/gets people in love/ interferes with nature then how can we have choice? or does he make us choose? (edit: cough cough... never mind then-what I had written before-)[b said:
well, of course not. When it does, it's a metaphor.[b said:
If I hear that one more time in this thread I'm going to explode.[b said:
(emphasis mine.. from http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/index.html)
and it HAS been proven. Look at capslock's link. That's what evolution IS! species becoming other species. (VERY simplified... OVERsimplified actually)[b said:
This is mind numbing in ten page increments.
The creation vs. evolution argument is nothing more than a debate over method. Belief in evolution comes from a belief in the scientific method, while belief in creationism comes from capital letter Faith. It's absurd to expect everyone who believes in evolution to be able to explain every nuance of the theory. As absurd as it would be to expect every driver to be able to explain the physics involved in the detonation of a fuel-air mixture.
I believe in molecular biology's ability to interpret organic molecules. Even if I can't do it myself. My education focused on other things. But that belief is different from a creationist's Faith in creation or Heaven's Gate cult members' Faith that their souls would follow the Halle Bopp comet to heaven.
The creation vs. evolution argument is nothing more than a debate over method. Belief in evolution comes from a belief in the scientific method, while belief in creationism comes from capital letter Faith. It's absurd to expect everyone who believes in evolution to be able to explain every nuance of the theory. As absurd as it would be to expect every driver to be able to explain the physics involved in the detonation of a fuel-air mixture.
I believe in molecular biology's ability to interpret organic molecules. Even if I can't do it myself. My education focused on other things. But that belief is different from a creationist's Faith in creation or Heaven's Gate cult members' Faith that their souls would follow the Halle Bopp comet to heaven.
I don't believe that being a christian and not believing in evolution are mutually inclusive. I'm not sure but I think about 10,000 posts ago the point was made that most of the major mainstream religions are not inherently against the theory of evolution. If I am wrong please correct me - but remember I am talking about the process of evolution NOT the creation of time/space/matter or the creation of the first living organism.
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