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Where does everyone stand in regards to...

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  • #681
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Jan. 10 2005,4:42)]Plants and insects both happen to have their own methods of survival.  Plants have the amazing ability to produce seed, which in all cases I can think of can survive at least 44 days.  Insects lay eggs, which normally hatch after anything from days to weeks, and can lay dormant for long periods of time if kept cold (ie. in cold water).   Other insects could survive as nymphs underground.  I personally am not sure quite how they all survived, but it would make an interesting study!

As for separate races, this site I found explains it much better than I can:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/race-skincolor.html

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If the magnificent flood story about a flood that covered the whole entire earth and these people had to build a giant enormous ark and put two of every *land* animals there for forty days and forty nights can be explained as easily as that... well then what about the other parts of the bible?

Go ahead and read it.  Most of it its pretty self-explanatory.

Peter

PS: Can you show me where the Bible states that the earth is round?
What about seeds surviving 40 days underwater?
neevr heard of that before, the seeds would rot away and die.
unless it was a water plant, of course.

if the nymphs burried themselbves underground, the massive water pressure would kill them if the water was that deep(up tot he highest peek)

I doubt most insect eggs would do that.
 
  • #682
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]PS: Can you show me where the Bible states that the earth is round?

There seem to be some passages that indicate that the world is flat, and some passages that indicate that the world is round. They all seem pretty wide open to interpretation (no surprise).

Flat:
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004round.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1990/1/1flat90.html
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm
http://www.truechristian.com/earthflat.html (I can't begin to list all the funny comments in this one, but I especially love "please be open minded before you read this, instead of checking out your brains at the entrance door"... is this a parody site?)

Round:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html
http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/flatearth.html
http://www.ichthys.com/mail-round%20earth.htm
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Isawa/flatearth.htm

Most of the flat earth passages sound like they're just using poetic language more than anything else if you ask me. But then I suppose there may have been biblical writers on either side.

I changed my mind... I'm starting to think the whole evolution/creation discussion can be abandoned at this point. It's gone in so many circles I don't see much hope of finding a fresh argument.
 
  • #683
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No insects came aboard, just land animals.
grrrr!!!! insects ARE land animals!!! 97% of all animals are invertebrates. 1 in every 4 species of animal is a beetle too.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Well, a fair bit of the world's oxygen also comes from microscopic plant life in the oceans, and likely would've sustained the planet for a fair bit with just Noah and his crew. Of course, a flood that huge would've destroyed every land plant, thusly leaving the animals SOL when returning to their home and leaving the world a barren wasteland.
there's no such thing as microscopic plant life in oceans. There's algae and cyanobacteria which are NOT plants. photosynthetic organisms that aren't plants (kelp, diatoms, cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates, etc) actually input more O2 than plants.
but of course if there really was to be a flood they would ALL die out because they would suffer from ... darn it.... what do you call it when a cell swells up and explodes when they are in a hypotonic solution?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] which in all cases I can think of can survive at least 44 days.  Insects lay eggs, which normally hatch after anything from days to weeks, and can lay dormant for long periods of time if kept cold (ie. in cold water).   Other insects could survive as nymphs underground.  I personally am not sure quite how they all survived, but it would make an interesting study!
again, impossible. If there was a worldwide flood (as I believe you believe) the pressure would be so strong that all the living lights out of any seed/egg/nymph would be crushed out of them. besides.... the salt/lack of salt in the water would have killed everything else too.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Check it out... and we can all stop wasting PFT server space...
does anyone else think this is a waste? I've learned a lot and I don't think this is a waste at all.
It is not the same talking to people and going one point at a time than reading all that.
assumes a flat earth since the verse refers to angels standing
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]at the "four corners" of the earth. Actually, the reference is to the cardinal directions: north, south, east, and west.
how can you stand on "east" and "west"? do they just fly around? then they're not standing...
how about north and south? it's more definite where they are but is it the magnetic poles? the poles according to the axis?
or is it all of it just another of the many metaphors presented as truth?
 
  • #684
Ok, I realize that I'm a little late to jump in here, and I know I've been gone a while, but boy howdy did this topic spring to life, I checked the night it started and it was already some 60 pages! Well, let's kick things off:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] again, impossible. If there was a worldwide flood (as I believe you believe) the pressure would be so strong that all the living lights out of any seed/egg/nymph would be crushed out of them. besides.... the salt/lack of salt in the water would have killed everything else too.

Whoever said that the eggs sit at the bottom??
smile_m_32.gif
Ok, so I'm just thinking here, but... Let's see. Let's say it starts raining, it's pouring, and the old man is a few leagues under the sea, ok, so, rain is freshwater, oceans have a higher salinity than freshwater. So, let's see, we need to observe a few things, for starters densities! Ok, think of an estuary, where freshwater and saltwater come together. As has been observed the salty water goes dooown, and the freshwater stays up top- viola! A word comes to mind- theromohaline! Ok, so, to sum up, if it starts raining and the whole world is covered with water, the top layer will be freshwater if it rains THAT MUCH, given in smaller amounts that the freshwater would ultimatly mix with the water of higher salt content. This happens in real life- gyres, and eddies, right? So, tada. We have freshwater life, ok, and you know what? If the water would have a higher salinity than that of freshwater, then there's another niche out there that would survive, besides, freshwater is the hardest aquatic environment to survive in out there. The point is that no matter how hard you try, it is awwwwwful hard to kill all the life on a planet. Trust me on this one *shifty eyes*
laugh.gif
.

Moving along though, to answer the original question- Evolution? Come over to my house, I'll show ya. We can SEE it happen today, we can MAKE it happen, that is to say, we cannot excell a species to what it will look like thousands of years from now, but look at Morgan's experiments with Drosophilla -fruitflies-. Or really any of the Mendelian principalities where we can make experiments. In reference to origins, we've obviously gotten in to the creationism v. evolution debate, on that note, all I really have to say at the moment is, evolution exists, we can see it, hey, either is possible. Me myself, I believe in somewhat of a mix between the two. Frankly though, I realize that some of my beliefs contradict the bible, but let's face it, within recorded history we can examine how the bible has been altered on purpose, and then there's always room for error in translation, and we're talking a lot of room here. Anyhoo, *lowers hand* let the flamewar continue
smile_n_32.gif
Just wanted to give my monday-afternoon-homework-procrastination bit.
 
  • #685
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]again, impossible. If there was a worldwide flood (as I believe you believe) the pressure would be so strong that all the living lights out of any seed/egg/nymph would be crushed out of them. besides.... the salt/lack of salt in the water would have killed everything else too

Yeah, I guess that if eggs were tied to bricks, they would stay under water, where they would be crushed.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]1 in every 4 species of animal is a beetle too.

And beetles spend ages as larvae, either bored into chunks of wood (which, it has been established, float!) or underground. Then the spend another long span of time in their pupal form, during which they could be flooded and never know.

Personally, I agree, we could abandon this debate, as most of us have probably exhausted our knowlege of real evidence.

In any case, I'd say we ditch the flood topic, as it really isn't central to the debate, and while it could easily have happened, neither side has much to base their arguments on.

Peter
 
  • #686
[b said:
Quote[/b] (schloaty @ Jan. 10 2005,5:03)]Check it out... and we can all stop wasting PFT server space...
I don't think it's wasting space. Everything here has been argued before because this isn't new information. Debating it is the point.
 
  • #687
Such a drastic rise in freshwater levels would dilute the salt, stopping the deep ocean curents that regulate world temperate. In other words, it would of started a new ice age. (I can see it now: "Well god added salt to the water also"
 
  • #688
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Whoever said that the eggs sit at the bottom??
many (most in fact) insects glue their eggs to things or burry them.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] As has been observed by the inhabitants is this: The salty water goes dooown, and the freshwater is up top- viola! A word comes to mind- theromohaline! Ok, so, to sum up, if it starts raining and the whole world is covered with water, the top layer will be freshwater if it rains THAT MUCH, given in smaller amounts that the freshwater would ultimatly mix with the water of higher salt content.
first of all I don't think it rained. people say that the water came from underground (which would mix the water) or mists or other... stuff..
but ok fine, the fresh water is up and the salt water is down. No big deal since it's already like that in the oceans (have you ever heard of the great ocean conveyor?) so let's see... now we have salt water organisms beneath billions of tons of water which would crush them, all photosynthetic life is gone, sea mammals like otters and whales and dolphins starve to death, etc.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We have freshwater life, ok, and you know what? If the water would have a higher salinity that freshwater, then there's another niche out there that would survive, besides, freshwater is the hardest aquatic environment to survive in out there
and then that niche is gone just like that killing even more life. (gee... we sure have one efficient, fair, reasonable, and good god now don't we?)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The real point is that no matter how hard you try, it is awwwwwful hard to kill all the life on a planet.
oh I know that. Life in this planet has endured oxygen poisoning (lol), ice ages, meteors, supervolcanoes, etc... but we're not talking about killing all life... 99 % of the organisms alive today would not have survived a world wide flood that covered the earth for forty days and nights.
 
  • #689
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] underground.  Then the spend another long span of time in their pupal form, during which they could be flooded and never know
well of course they would never know. They'd be dead! (eggs and pupae are NOT indistructable you know. and not all eggs/pupae float, etc... again, not ALL life would have died but we would not have the species we have today if there HAD been a flood just a few thousands of years ago.)
and it's not just everything surviving the actual flood. the one or so organisms that managed to survive would still have to deal with disease, how to get food (many would have been washed away thousands of miles from where they were... we should have the same species of beetles all around the world!), shelter (everything would be wet...), find mates, (if a lion needs food... it's going to eat a zebra... but there were only two zebras in the whole entire earth... so there goes that species... oh... and they were BABIES because adults couldn't fit on the boat... so the two lone survivors would have to survive to maturity too.
you CANNOT (it is IMPOSSIBLE) to rebuild a whole ecosystem with just two babies of every animal species and all photosynthetic life gone.
arguing for the flood story is ridiculous. there is NO WAY it could have happened without god sticking his nose in every single aspect of it.
and I am DONE about the flood myth. I feel so stupid having to point out the obvious results of a worldwide flood and how it would be IMPOSSIBLE in this reality.
 
  • #690
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] oh I know that. Life in this planet has endured oxygen poisoning (lol)

Boy howdy! You're right! I say we start breathing hydrogen sulfide this instant
biggrin.gif


Ok, so I say we keep this friendly so that none of us need to give a thousand links to try to come out on top, I'm here to learn something just like you -and no I'm not saying that it isn't friendly... just... Oh forget it :p-

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] now we have salt water organisms beneath billions of tons of water which would crush them...
Well, as far as we're concerned, doesn't it not really matter for the most part??? They're already under billions of tonnes -and tons for the metric-impared :p- Ok, so if there would be an even greater pressure, I think the real vital stuff -organisms on the seafloor which recycle matter and create CO2 and ward of ice ages yadda yadda...- would survive, no? I mean, granted that we'd have to say goodbye to quite a few of our fishy friends. And another question, if we have this much water rushing in, no matter where it's coming from wouldn't it hit land fairly forceful to begin with? so wouldn't a lot of normally burried things -aforementioned eggs- get washed around and all of that? I dunno, this is just for fun for me, I don't really care, and I agree with you that most things wouldn't have survived it, just fun to take apart, kind of irrelivent, but fun
biggrin.gif
So I wasn't here when we determined at all photosynthetic life would die, where's the reasoning there?? What I was getting at before with the densities stuff is, wont the autotrophs from freshwater environment survive? See, I'm not bothering to argue the whole matter, as far as I'm concerned, most of life would have died *shrug*, we're just coming up with an interesting discussion from this
biggrin.gif


--Addition: So, no I'm not aruing that it was possible, I'm justhaving fun with the biology talk
smile_n_32.gif
 
  • #691
starman i know those examples but thats not the same as the statement that they all back up the flood or all can be generalized that they followed the same basic events!


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Plants and insects both happen to have their own methods of survival. Plants have the amazing ability to produce seed, which in all cases I can think of can survive at least 44 days. Insects lay eggs, which normally hatch after anything from days to weeks, and can lay dormant for long periods of time if kept cold (ie. in cold water). Other insects could survive as nymphs underground. I personally am not sure quite how they all survived, but it would make an interesting study!

As for separate races, this site I found explains it much better than I can:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/race-skincolor.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/race-skincolor.html[/QUOTE]



hello, non seed-bearing plants, and all seeds definatly cant stay viable for 44 days. how long the seed stays viable depends on the food stores around the embryo and how effecently the embryo uses those stores. and all plants vary greatly in athe amount of food stored for it in the seed.


surviving as nymphs... first, they would drown because insects breathe air too, underwaterones often have air reserves available... pupa have air holes in their shells... and two, there are very, very few insects living in the oceans, because the nitch they have on land has been taken by copeopods
 
  • #692
WOAH howd that happen
confused.gif
 
  • #693
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] pupa have air holes in their shells...
exoskeletons please :p insects don't have shells.
(and if anybody was wondering the air holes are called spiracles)

and fish do have a certain range of pressures they can withdstand.
 
  • #694
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] and fish do have a certain range of pressures they can withdstand.
Got that, that's why fish kinda... Pop when pulled up from depths; their air bladders... Well, let's just say that they don't really appreciate it :p I was refering to the organisms living on the sea floor... Any idea about those?
 
  • #695
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Est @ Jan. 10 2005,8:53)]I was refering to the organisms living on the sea floor... Any idea about those?
Those organisms that live on the sea floor also have a depth at which they can be in. More pressure still might be bad for even them.
 
  • #696
same as all other organisms. (usually more pressure is worse than less pressure... but less pressure can also have negative effects)
 
  • #697
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Pop when pulled up from depths; their air bladders
you mean their bladders (or is the stomach being pushed by the bladder?) come out of their mouth?
 
  • #699
not to be confused with the urinary bladder LOL
 
  • #700
This is definetly going in circles.

I see no reason why Noah did not bring the insects on the ark. They are, as alphawolf says, land animals. They simply weren't mentioned directly as the birds and cattle were.
 
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