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Where does everyone stand in regards to...

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  • #901
That alone doesnt make them different species, but in this case there is no doubt that the species i used as a example is

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also i find any plant based argument weak due to the fact that even botonists will admit that assigning species to plants is very difficult and by no means perfect.

Soo, youll find it weak if i martched you outside and showed you the difference between a silver maple and a red maple, youll say that that argument is weak thet they are different species???


[/QUOTE]assigning species to plants is very difficult and by no means perfect.
Right some genuses, like oak and rowan, are extreemly difficult to classify certain species, but ti lump all plant based arguments like that because some plants are hard to tell from others is ignorant- by no means do we have trouble classifying clearly defined species. ITs like your sayimg that no plant species is clearly defined, so they dont count! You dont even know the specific similarities and differences in the examples, so to pass them off like that with a wave of the hand and a comment when you havent even SEEN them is completely silly.
 
  • #902
How do you define species?  Many plant genera have species that share a common range and interbreed naturally, producing viable offspring.  Should all that do so be considered one species?  I think so.  Others see many species.  Instead of carving notches in revolver handles or bedposts, taxonomists get their jollies by identifying more and more species.
 
  • #903
Like the oaks, those are inpossible to classify
 
  • #904
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How do you define species? Many plant genera have species that share a common range and interbreed naturally, producing viable offspring.
two populations are different species if they can't breed and have fertile offspring. This definition is something everyone I've heard about agrees on. If that's true, I don't knwo who could consider them the same species (besides ktulu lol)

now... my own opinion... which I think I based on scientists but I ain't no expert.
If they can (interbreed and have fertile offspring), they're different species if they came from different species and just happen to look alike (some say guineapigs aren't in the rodent family because DNA evidence suggests rodents and guineapigs came from different ancestors or something)... or if they're very different and/or come from different places (like neps are very different and/or come from different places... they can hybradize and have fertile offspring can't they? yet they're different species... or would you say that they're the same species?)
 
  • #905
Sarracenias share ranges and freely interbreed, so are Sarracenias all one species? Most of the time, I think the answer is yes.
 
  • #906
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 18 2005,12:49)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]the mice, it says only if it is a unfit hybrid does the mating not work,
and that's why they're different species!!!
just like donkeys and horses can mate and have mules but they're different species because the mules are sterile.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]They could also look for different things in a potential mate, especally if they fill different niches, but that does not make them different species, if that is so there should be about 500 species of rat present in the islands that europeans went to since they seemed to spread them like the plague.
sexual isolation... part of evolution.
and they ARE different species because they can't interbreed, so they can't have fertile offspring.
umm did you actully read the whole post there, because the next sentance explains what i meant by the mice, so now someone else is ignoring facts and believing what is convient to them. or atleast ignoring what was said and only selecting what helps their argument.

where does it say they CANT interbreed, just because they wont doesnt mean they cant.
 
  • #907
To add to my previous post, speciation is trivial if two species can reproduce with each other and produce viable offspring.  Speciation is awe inspiring if they can't.  I go for the latter.
 
  • #908
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finch @ Jan. 18 2005,1:18)]That alone doesnt make them different species, but in this case there is no doubt that the species i used as a example is

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also i find any plant based argument weak due to the fact that even botonists will admit that assigning species to plants is very difficult and by no means perfect.

Soo, youll find it weak if i martched you outside and showed you the difference between a silver maple and a red maple, youll say that that argument  is weak thet they are different species???
assigning species to plants is very difficult and by no means perfect.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]

Right some genuses, like oak and rowan, are extreemly difficult to classify certain species, but ti lump all plant based arguments like that because some plants are hard to tell from others is ignorant- by no means do we have trouble classifying clearly defined species. ITs like your sayimg that no plant species is clearly defined, so they dont count! You dont even know the specific similarities and differences in the examples, so to pass them off like that with a wave of the hand and a comment when you havent even SEEN them is completely silly.
ok let me rephrase that, these plants that are in the same genus genrally have the ability to hybirdies, which makes them hard to classify as one species or another.  I remember that alot of species of plant are reclassifed often by differnt people because there is so much controversy as to what is a species and what isnt.

and alphawolf where did i ever say that two differnt species that cant interbred are not differnt species.  now you are just making things up.
 
  • #909
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]umm did you actully read the whole post there, because the next sentance explains what i meant by the mice, so now someone else is ignoring facts and believing what is convient to them. or atleast ignoring what was said and only selecting what helps their argument.

where does it say they CANT interbreed, just because they wont doesnt mean they cant.

this is what it says: Analysis of contact between two chromosomal races of house mice in northern Italy show that natural selection will produce alleles that bar interracial matings if the resulting offspring are unfit hybrids. This is an important exception to the general rule that intermixing races will not tend to become separate species because the constant sharing of genes minimizes the genetic diversity requisite for speciation.

that means that they can't interbreed because they'll have unfit hybrids (and they can't have offspring)
 
  • #910
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]and alphawolf where did i ever say that two differnt species that cant interbred are not differnt species. now you are just making things up.
you said that there weren't any examples of speciation. a couple of the examples say that different populations can't interbreed (mice) so they're different species. If you consider them the same species, then you think that populations that can't interbreed can be the same species.
 
  • #911
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 18 2005,2:34)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]umm did you actully read the whole post there, because the next sentance explains what i meant by the mice, so now someone else is ignoring facts and believing what is convient to them. or atleast ignoring what was said and only selecting what helps their argument.

where does it say they CANT interbreed, just because they wont doesnt mean they cant.

this is what it says: Analysis of contact between two chromosomal races of house mice in northern Italy show that natural selection will produce alleles that bar interracial matings if the resulting offspring are unfit hybrids. This is an important exception to the general rule that intermixing races will not tend to become separate species because the constant sharing of genes minimizes the genetic diversity requisite for speciation.

that means that they can't interbreed because they'll have unfit hybrids (and they can't have offspring)
yeah but your bolded statement itself says if, implying that in some situtations they do produce fertile offspring.
 
  • #912
well... that's not what I think it says... but anyway that's not the only example so who cares about those stupid mice? (LOL)
 
  • #913
so now that i have disproved what you have said, you change your story.

no offense alphawolf but you sound to me alot like the religuos zealots you claim to be fighting against. you get personal when someone proves your wrong, you dont stick to your points, yet you seem to enjoy making fun of the people that do exactly that.
 
  • #914
you didn't disprove anything.
"bar interracial matings if the resulting offspring are unfit hybrids"
that to me means that you can't mate if the offspring are hybrids, which is totally different from what you say. I didn't change my story, I just don't think that that particular one matters that much. There are others and we shouldn't get stuck on a single one that is apparently worded in a confusing way.
 
  • #915
sticking to a single thing is what creationists like to do to "disprove" things (sound familiar?). Ok, sure, one in ten thousand fossils has been a hoax, OH MY GOD!!! it's all a hoax! evolution is false!
 
  • #916
ok, sorry, lets forget the mice, but so far the only example that you gave that has seemed like it is even possablly speciation is the goatsbeard and that just sounds like hybridization to me, however i dont have a enough information to truely determine it.

and i never said evolution is false, nor did i say fossils are false, though there have been quite a few of those false fossils.
 
  • #917
and hey what happened to keeping this friendly alphawolf? alot of the comments you have made have been very biting remarks, at least the one towards me seem to be that way.
 
  • #918
I wasn't talking about YOU saying that, I was talking about what creationists in general do.
Besides... why does it matter if it's hybridization? it's still a new species. That is speciation (one species becoming another)
wait wait wait WAIT!!! what the heck! grr... I hate it when that happens. no wonder you hadn't seen the primrose! Ok, I apologize. My mistake (sort of... the stupid computer didn't copy the link :p)
read this- http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

(by the way... some genera can interbreed too...)
 
  • #919
you're right. sorry. I've been in a bad mood because I'm stupid and having three full days of when to do my homework (essays, journal entries) I haven't been able to do it (I've TRIED but it's just SO HARD!)... grr
mad.gif
 
  • #920
usally hybrids can interbreed with both of the parent species, which means its not a new species.
 
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