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Where does everyone stand in regards to...

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  • #981
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]My mind is open to the logical.

 Then your mind is not open.  Your mind is "open" to what you allow yourself to perceive as logical- if you refuse to open your eyes to something because you don't believe it exists, how will you ever see what's beyond yourself? Even if there is nothing, would it really hurt to look?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No. Of course you'd say that.
 Don't you dare lump people in to a stereotype like that. There's something that I want you to notice, on this thread there are a few people, and I'm including you in this statement, AE, that are open to what you WANT to be open to, and it seems like those people have been people who've convinced themselves that evolution is where it's at.  Furthermore, I've noticed that many imbetweeners and folks with religous background have been more open to BOTH ideas.  Look, the thing is that you are telling people to open up their eyes and smell the fossil record, trying to convince them that your ideas and only your ideas are right.  Now, the few of you that this pertains to, you need to play a bit more nicely, ok??  I'm not saying "don't argument what you believe", but I'm saying don't be militant in judging other people and/or their beliefs, it'll make this a much more informative a fun topic, and if some of the trolling that's been going on keeps up, then I'm not sure how ong we can keep this thread from getting locked.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"To me believing something you can't see made everything against all the proof your other human cohorts are showing you (that you can see for yourself if you just open your eyes!!!) is not normal."

 My friend, I'd like to give you a pat on the back and explain this to you in a calm voice, but apparently I'll need to try to keep it to explaining in writing...  You are telling me, and others that we don't have our eyes open because we aren't athiests.  You are no longer making comments on the origin of life on this planet, but militantly questioning people and their faith.  Now, I want you to try something really hard, as I'm trying really hard to explain it and keep it nice; you see it is unfair of you to claim that others do not have their eyes open because of their beliefs.  Look, I believe firmly in evolution, but I also have religious ties that I have chosen to make despite my affinity for science.  See, you are telling people who hold belief in both that they need to "open our eyes".  Now, it just so happens that myself and my "cohorts", my partners in crime *wink*, I'm sure will agree that you are being a little extreme.  I'm not sure about the earlier pages, but no one is trying to impress on you that there is God, only God, and that evolution is a bunch of hooey.  Though, you are not doing us this same service, and I, on the behalf of myself and others who are more religiously sesitive would ask you to please take a little more consideration in what you say.  No one is being agressive towards your ideas, so please, settle down a little.  
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It's open to things that can be proven with fact. That i can see or touch or test or something, so i can see are real. That's what im open to.

 You see, if you keep your eyes closed to what others think, then you can't see what they do.  You wont see miracles that other people do because you wont let yourself, because you've written in stone for yourself that you are right, and nothing besides what you believe right here, right now, could be right.  Through my faith I can see something different than you, I don't have a hyper-cool different reality, but I percieve things differently.  As you have seen, I'm not a religious zealot either -I don't think we have any of those here...- and I have to reason to want to trick you, but if you open yourself to what other's believe, then you can get a lot more out of things.  Don't you worry, I'm not being biased, I'd say the same thing to anyone who posted agressive "God is teh roxerz!!!1" posts as well.
 
 So, to sum things up, I'm not asking anyone to have a religious conversion, to suddenly give up their life and devote it to God, religion, or the studies therof, but simply to try to see things in the light that others do and to maintain a level of respect.  Thank you.  And thank you brisco225, excellent points and it's good to heav some freash me- uhh, more oppinions here
biggrin.gif
 
  • #982
Est, very well spoken.  You hit on many points I believe in, but hadn't written.  

You are very welcome for the points I made earlier.  I was getting tired the way this thread was heading, while I sat idly by watching.  I'm here to answer any questions, to the best of my ability.
 
  • #983
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Jan. 20 2005,11:15)]]
how? like I've said before, you can go out and buy chicken wings. You can experience goosebumps. You can go to museums and look at the fossil records. If you have the money you can also date the fossils and do EVERYTHING there is to do to prove to yourself that what they are saying is true. You can look at bats and see how they have thumbs and all four fingers in each wing. You can look at your birds' legs (like I have) and see that they have scales. you can go to museums and look at human fetuses and see the tails and gill slits. You can see how so many species are so alike and it's pretty obvious they had the same ancestors. You can even see changes over time, Just like I saw with my snails and ostrocods (no conclusive proof, I admit, but it's something) You don't have to rely on the written word. That is why this is science. You can actually go do and see everything that supports evolution. There is nothing you can do except believe in a book in order to be a creationist or believe in intelligent design.
In the same way, many observe nature and its splendor and attribute that to God. Why not?

You could, using your example, observe a bat wing, and bird wing, and an insect wing and marvel at how well they are suited to the purpose. Its simply the view you are using. Just because things are alike doesn't mean they all came from a common "thing". It could just as likely be a common creator.

Also...what you can't do is speed time and observe fish actually evolving into tailed amphibians.
 
  • #984
In the words of Tommy Vercetti, "I'm getting bored of this".
 
  • #985
Est, Brisco, thank you! The only point I was trying to make to the folks here was the same. There are 2 sides to every question, different points of view, and different trains of thought. Just because some do not wish to believe in God, so what? I am not arguing God either. That is personal. Very personal. I did not attack the beliefs of those who started the thread, but have been attacked by those who only see what they want to see. If this cannot be discussed further without AE, or Alpha, ripping people because they do not see things their way, this thread is done. A true scientist always looks at both sides of the question. Whether they believe it or not. I don't care if you believe we crawled out of primordial soup, or were created in the image of God, but common courtesy, and respect had better creep back into this thread, or it is gone. AE, don't believe in God. The world will still function the same way. Alpha, varying points of view, do not consider what you say is proof. Live with it. Tearing someone else down for whatever they believe is not going to be tolerated at all anymore. Get human, get kind, and accept that this forum thread agrees to disagree, and people will hold onto their beliefs like the security blanket I mentioned, who knows how many pages ago. If you are the victims of your own inflexible thoughts, don't stuff them down our throats, and that goes for both sides. Why someone would just turn off scientific reasoning, just because somebody mentions God, is very unprofessional. And not at all like the scientist that really wants to know, and is willing to study it all for their own edification, and the edification of others. I have been studying nature and science since I was 4 (sez mom) and a christian since I was 12, and have no problem seeing evolution in that context at all. I still question the Evolutional Theory in use, do not totally accept the creationist idea, and am constantly digging for my own answers, NOT someone else's. I will say that the unwillingness to accept a different point of view, will hinder any work you will do in the future. Truly read the Intelligent Design Theory, and just read it. You don't have to accept it, but give it the chance of being read, torn apart, and your own opinion made. If you do not really know what is contained in that work, won't read it because it mentions God (EEK!), and only take the word of someone else that its nonsense, you have done yourself a great injustice by not studying it and formulating your own ideas about it. THAT is science. Once you have convinced yourself that so and so said its bunk, and you take their word, you will never know what you have really missed by not studying it yourself. If you want to be blind, be blind. You say open your eyes? Well, hell, open yours yourself, and really give things a looking over, and a chance. You just might be shocked. Their may be parrallels you would never have considered. I have learned a lot because of this thread, and have undertaken my own study, and already find interesting stuff in both evolution theory, and intelligent design. However, there is enough stuff here to last me til I die, so I have lots to read and absorb. In spite of it all, BE NICE, BE KIND, or this thread is gone. And that would be too bad. It has been interesting, and informative from both sides, if we would just listen. (Key words: both sides.)
 
  • #986
Bugweed, well said.

By the way, the latest issue of Discover magazine has an article about how some scientists have proven evolution can happen. Note I said CAN not DID. The data is very compelling! Countless creationists have downloaded the program (which is available free on the web) to find a fatal flaw. They have found some minor problems, but nothing to discredit the research. One of the people involved in the program said that this was great. They have an army of people trying to find bugs in their program, which only strengthens its position.
 
  • #987
i agree very well said bugweed.

also i would like to point out that evolution is not as air tight as many of you have tried to make it seem. although i do believe in evolution, many of you are presenting it as an undenyable fact, which it is not, even many scientist who study it will not say evolution is an uncontestable fact. im not saying it didnt happen im not saying there isnt evidence, im just saying that the evidence presented is not as strong as many of you seem to think it is and has flaws in it.
 
  • #988
Ok, I decided to skip the first 99 pages of the thread, so I decided to just post thoughts.

First, I grew up going to church every week till I escaped to college.

As a teenager, genetic algorithms and artificial life programs were some of the first software I've ever written.  Think of them as computer simulated evolution.  Its amazing to see interesting behavior arise out randomness through artificially simulated natural selection.  Several times I've seen a genetic algorithm surprise me when it found something unexpected.  I'm a hardcore darwinist and I see the results of evolution and natural selection everywhere that I look and it is happening around us as we speak.

Personally, I think people take the bible way too literally.  I'd rather believe in a God who created animals through evolution than just saying 'Poof' and having them exist.

I urge anybody who doesn't believe in evolution to read "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins.  Your local library should have a copy.

To me, evolution is the powerful force that drives mother nature.  It gave us all these nice carnivorous plants afterall.
smile.gif
 
  • #989
I think the poepl here are arguing two different things. I did not read the first 80 or so pages but Evolution and the Creation of life are not tied in. The point of this thread is about Evolution not the creation of life. I noticed that whenever something ( I percieve) becomes an obvious example that evolution did happen some people turn to the creation of life. Either way the creation of life has noting to do with evoltuion. Some people believe a god created life, some believe alien life forms somehow got deposited on Earth, some of us are waiting for science to PROVE one of these. If you think EVOLUTION and the CREATION OF LIFE are tied in you should read The Orgin of Species Darwin never mentions evolution and creation of life tying in. I may have missed in in my three times reading the book but I do not think so.
 
  • #990
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Est @ Jan. 21 2005,1:06)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No. Of course you'd say that.
Don't you dare lump people in to a stereotype like that. There's something that I want you to notice, on this thread there are a few people, and I'm including you in this statement, AE, that are open to what you WANT to be open to, and it seems like those people have been people who've convinced themselves that evolution is where it's at. Furthermore, I've noticed that many imbetweeners and folks with religous background have been more open to BOTH ideas. Look, the thing is that you are telling people to open up their eyes and smell the fossil record, trying to convince them that your ideas and only your ideas are right. Now, the few of you that this pertains to, you need to play a bit more nicely, ok?? I'm not saying "don't argument what you believe", but I'm saying don't be militant in judging other people and/or their beliefs, it'll make this a much more informative a fun topic, and if some of the trolling that's been going on keeps up, then I'm not sure how ong we can keep this thread from getting locked.
I'm not lumping creationists into a stereotype. I was talking to him. Again you are into something that wasn't pertaining to you. In the future when you see me answering someone, it's directed to them. It's not a generalization.
 
  • #991
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Est @ Jan. 21 2005,1:06)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"To me believing something you can't see made everything against all the proof your other human cohorts are showing you (that you can see for yourself if you just open your eyes!!!) is not normal."

My friend, I'd like to give you a pat on the back and explain this to you in a calm voice, but apparently I'll need to try to keep it to explaining in writing... You are telling me, and others that we don't have our eyes open because we aren't athiests. You are no longer making comments on the origin of life on this planet, but militantly questioning people and their faith. Now, I want you to try something really hard, as I'm trying really hard to explain it and keep it nice; you see it is unfair of you to claim that others do not have their eyes open because of their beliefs. Look, I believe firmly in evolution, but I also have religious ties that I have chosen to make despite my affinity for science. See, you are telling people who hold belief in both that they need to "open our eyes". Now, it just so happens that myself and my "cohorts", my partners in crime *wink*, I'm sure will agree that you are being a little extreme. I'm not sure about the earlier pages, but no one is trying to impress on you that there is God, only God, and that evolution is a bunch of hooey. Though, you are not doing us this same service, and I, on the behalf of myself and others who are more religiously sesitive would ask you to please take a little more consideration in what you say. No one is being agressive towards your ideas, so please, settle down a little.
I'm not an atheist. No, i'm telling you and others that you don't have your eyes open to my comments about religion. I'm not questioning anyone about their faith. I'm simply trying to understand why you think the way you do, because it makes no sense to me at all. Try not to get so sensitive. Maybe if you asnwer my questions this would go much smoothly without the dramatic feedback.
 
  • #992
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Est @ Jan. 21 2005,1:06)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It's open to things that can be proven with fact. That i can see or touch or test or something, so i can see are real. That's what im open to.

You see, if you keep your eyes closed to what others think, then you can't see what they do. You wont see miracles that other people do because you wont let yourself, because you've written in stone for yourself that you are right, and nothing besides what you believe right here, right now, could be right. Through my faith I can see something different than you, I don't have a hyper-cool different reality, but I percieve things differently. As you have seen, I'm not a religious zealot either -I don't think we have any of those here...- and I have to reason to want to trick you, but if you open yourself to what other's believe, then you can get a lot more out of things. Don't you worry, I'm not being biased, I'd say the same thing to anyone who posted agressive "God is teh roxerz!!!1" posts as well.

So, to sum things up, I'm not asking anyone to have a religious conversion, to suddenly give up their life and devote it to God, religion, or the studies therof, but simply to try to see things in the light that others do and to maintain a level of respect. Thank you. And thank you brisco225, excellent points and it's good to heav some freash me- uhh, more oppinions here
biggrin.gif
Let's go back to evolution since people are getting very sensitive.
 
  • #993
I am not disrespecting anyone. My question simply was "Where is god?" It got sensitive, i don't know why. I wasn't testing anyone's faith. Look from the point that i posted that question up until this post. My question was never answered. The reason for the past few posts was for myself. To see if anyone would tell me something i didn't know and make me think. Obviously not.

I bet if there really was an answer to the question "where is god" there wouldn't be a whole argument. Would there?


Now... back to evolution.
 
  • #994
AE, what is your question? I have tried to answer one or two. Also, if you could clarify the the two points you made, I am trying to understand them. Thanks.
 
  • #995
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]But seriously, it wouldn't hurt a few of us here to open our minds a little.
I'm open to the possibility of a god. The thing I'm not open to is the possibility of your god... and I've said why.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Quote  
My mind is open to the logical.


Then your mind is not open.  Your mind is "open" to what you allow yourself to perceive as logical-
In my mind, Logical also includes the bible. The bible to me isn't logical (as I've said before...)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Even if there is nothing, would it really hurt to look?
how do you look?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You are telling me, and others that we don't have our eyes open because we aren't athiests.
I know you weren't talking to me... but did I mention I'm agnostic?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]In the same way, many observe nature and its splendor and attribute that to God. Why not?
because there's proof that it wasn't just "created" (that evolution isn't true). For example vestigial structures. That to me shows there is no "intelligent design". What else could it show? That there IS intelligent design? It's not just that I don't see any holes (and no one has made me see any... have they? do you see any "flaws" creationists have found in evolution that haven't had a reasonable answer?... I think all of their arguments against evolution have been adressed haven't they? we have even asked if we've ignored something... nobody replied. ) so it's not just that I don't see any holes in evolution, it's that I see many holes in intelligent design. There is absolutely no way that the other 99. something percent of species that have ever lived in this planet could have lived in it at the same time (and others...)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also...what you can't do is speed time and observe fish actually evolving into tailed amphibians.
yeah. That proof is impossible to get, so there's no point in asking for it.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]A true scientist always looks at both sides of the question.
I have. Did I mention I was raised as a christian?... of course I haven't looked at ALL the religions, but neither have you so it's irrelevant. and since I have looked at both sides, I can say I definately not believe in the bible. If there's a god then fine... but I don't believe it is the christian (and others) god (s)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Alpha, varying points of view, do not consider what you say is proof.
because you're looking for impossible proof. No human in this earth (maybe Noah did a long long time ago... but we don't) could possibly see a fish become an amphibian, Nor could they see continents drifting, nor can they see gravity, nor could they even prove that the earth revolves around the sun (according to your way of thinking... what DO you consider proof? no matter what we say, you'll say it's not proof. I don't think that's very open minded is it?)
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] and am constantly digging for my own answers, NOT someone else's
No one is asking you to. Like I said, go out and see for yourself, but look at it with an open mind (lol... don't you just hate it when people turn what you say back at them?) and don't try to prove YOUR point because that is easy. I can "prove" guineapigs are sent from hell If I really want to.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Truly read the Intelligent Design Theory, and just read it.
first of all... it's not a scientific theory nor even a hypothesis. Secondly... where do I read it? It basically just says that organisms are too complex to have evolved. I say that with billions of years and natural selection (and others) that is out the window.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If you do not really know what is contained in that work, won't read it because it mentions God (EEK!),
oh you know I'll read it no matter where it comes from. I think I've read most if not all of the links creationists have posted, and I've replied. Once I found too many mistakes, I just disregarded that site because there's no use in reading it. Not to mention I've researched before on my own (and debated)... and like I said before, it has made me doubt evolution (until I read about the other argument) I've also read every single word (as far as I know.. I probably skipped more than a few words here and there :p) posted in this thread.
that seems pretty open minded and "scientific" to me don't you think?
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]and only take the word of someone else that its nonsense, you have done yourself a great injustice by not studying it and formulating your own ideas about it
I don't. ask my biology teacher
biggrin.gif
 (I love proving teachers wrong...)
and I have studied it and formulated my own ideas... but of course many times their ideas were better so I switched to their ideas :p
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Countless creationists have downloaded the program (which is available free on the web) to find a fatal flaw
do you know where I can download it?
(and before my post is deleted... I'd better post it)
^^^edited... now you've got to read it again to see my edits! LOL. jk.
 
  • #996
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]im just saying that the evidence presented is not as strong as many of you seem to think it is and has flaws in it.
well, tell us about the flaws. I haven't found any so of course I'm not going to think there are flaws in it.  
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]are tied in you should read The Orgin of Species Darwin never mentions evolution and creation of life tying in
if anyone wants to read it (personally I WANT to read it but haven't had time to even start) you can do so here (holy COW I have a LOT of links in my favorites! took me like 3 minutes to find the link!)
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin.html

WHEW! I'm done. Sorry for the long post but you know how I can't shut up LOL (and actually it's not just that. I TRY to reply to everything anyone says... at least the relevant things. Though many of our questions have gone unanswered. just go back and you'll see. And again... We are humans too so if there's anything you think we haven't adressed or something we are ignoring, please tell us.)
 
  • #997
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Also...what you can't do is speed time and observe fish actually evolving into tailed amphibians.

yeah. That proof is impossible to get, so there's no point in asking for it.
Look at egg to frog. Tailed amphibians are called tadpoles. Tadpoles first look remarkibly like small, native fish then "evolve" to Frogs. Obviously they do not truly evolve but in a sense you are watching evolution.
I for one have seen no evidence for intelligent design. Please show me proof. I am obviously biased but we Darwinians have presented case after case ranging from plant to animal. No creationist has presented any evidence besides "The bible" (that is inaccurate to archeologists, darwinists, and a whole bunch of others). No one belives that Aristoltial was right in many aspects (like the elements being earth, air, fire and water) and true he was older then the bible, the bible is out dated. Darwin did not try to prove anything he could not. He gave example after example of evolution and how it worked. I have heard that
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]God is in Nature
. please where is the proof? And further more how do you know there are not several gods creating everything? This seems like a Christian attempt to hold on to religion. A Catholic (very biased here) attempt to slow down the world and progress. Correct me if I have made any mistakes, please.
 
  • #998
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Tailed amphibians are called tadpoles
or salamanders, or amphiomas, or those worm like things from south america.. lol
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Look at egg to frog.
has anyone raised amphibians from egg to adult? do you by any chance have a microscope? it's SO cool! it really makes you appreciate life... you can see the ball become elongated, then you see the shape of the head, tail, eyes, etc... then they're born and you can see the blood circulating in their gills and tail... then they turn into froglets and you feed 'em, etc...
I've tried with salamanders but they just die
smile_h_32.gif
they eat a LOT!... so until I have the right equipment I vow that I will not kill any more by trying to raise them.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I for one have seen no evidence for intelligent design. Please show me proof. I am obviously biased but we Darwinians have presented case after case ranging from plant to animal.
amen to that! lol... I just had to say that.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Correct me if I have made any mistakes, please.
you mean aristotle
biggrin.gif
 
  • #1,000
huh? you seem like a pretty good speller to me!
 
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