Cp evolution ideas

[Treaqum]

This is NOT a debate about evolution.  This is a thread to see everyones ideas on what cps evolved from and into.  Species should be used in place of ancestors.  I believe "A World of Pinguicula" did a good job on teh genetic evolution of Pinguicula so not much to ask about there. I do not think many of the books on cps that I have read have given good evolutionary explainations.  Why would Drosera or Pings evolve from Bromiliads for instance.
Here's my example and argument for such:
All species represented will have to be immagined as ancestors.
D. schzandra evolved into a Ping with tall glands (such as P. rectifolia among others) this happened when the change from D. schzandra to other Drosera produced a varient with short glands and lots of glands.

 

[Amateur_Expert]

nice way to sneak the topic back into the forums.. lol

i'll jump in when i see something i want to answer.

 

[Treaqum]

No you must have missed the first line. This is what plants cps evolved from and what they evolved into once they became carnivorous. DO NOT argue about evolution.

 

[Amateur_Expert]

Quote[/b] (Treaqum @ Jan. 24 2005,8:37)]No you must have missed the first line. This is what plants cps evolved from and what they evolved into once they became carnivorous. DO NOT argue about evolution.

Yeah you're right but i can bet any money it'll lead back to evolution... if you have a real discussion about it.

 

[RamPuppy]

well how about if we say here and now that it won't lead back into a debate on the merrits of origins and so on. Posting in this topic assumes you take evolution as a given. PERIOD.

Oh, and if someone were trying to sneak a topic back into the public eye (which I DO NOT think is the case here) pointing it out is probably not the best move. Though, it is not a big deal, the mods are pretty smart.

Treaqum, any particular plant you would like to discuss? I would suggest starting with Dionea, since there is only one plant in the genus, you can have a focused discussion on it. I think it would be especially fascinating, as there is still (at least last time I checked) some debate on whether trigger hairs start a rapid growth of cells, or some type of osmotic/hydraulic action for closure and so on. Also an interesting point, would be to consider the mutation of the pom pom trap, and whether that is a hint as to the past of this plant?

 

[jhaluska]

Well, here's my thoughts on the evolution.

Originally there was a plant that grew in a humid area that to attract insects to polinate it, let off a dew on its..possibly originally started on the leaves, then moved to dew onto stems.  They became very adept at attracting insects to polinate them, then a mutation occured that made the dew sticky and possible got them to polinate and then they would get stuck and fall to the earth and help provide nutrients through decomposition.

Then another mutation occurred and the dew was able to do a simple form of digestion.  More mutations occured over the eons and the plants started to be able to do slow movements.  Then we have sundews!

Now I think we got VFTs from sundews.  I think the leaves of the plant slowly changed and the stalks receeded into the inner leaves of the trap of VFT.  And the traps slowly evolved to be quicker and and quicker and less sticky and more traplike to trap insects.

Pom poms may just be a weird mutation or may have turned off a gene necessary to create the traps we have today.

 

[Amateur_Expert]

Quote[/b] (RamPuppy @ Jan. 25 2005,3:15)]well how about if we say here and now that it won't lead back into a debate on the merrits of origins and so on. Posting in this topic assumes you take evolution as a given. PERIOD.

Oh, and if someone were trying to sneak a topic back into the public eye (which I DO NOT think is the case here) pointing it out is probably not the best move. Though, it is not a big deal, the mods are pretty smart.

It was a joke. Chill.

 

[Treaqum]

Not to be rude but no more jokes.
I think the flowerstem of a Cephalotus could have mutated into another plant which did not send down roots and hence Neps were born. If this is true we could get climbing VFTs next. Excellent!

 

[herenorthere]

Here's a cladogram of carnivorous genera in the Caryophyllales group of plants.  Maybe the relationships are accurate, maybe they're not.  Working out evolutionary relationships needs a lot of meticulous taxonomy & biochemistry work.

 

[Amateur_Expert]

Quote[/b] (herenorthere @ Jan. 25 2005,7:25)]Here's a cladogram of carnivorous genera in the Caryophyllales group of plants. Maybe the relationships are accurate, maybe they're not. Working out evolutionary relationships needs a lot of meticulous taxonomy & biochemistry work.

Especially as scientifically ignored carnivorous plants are. Relative to the amount of research done on other plants.

 

[herenorthere]

Thomas Edison was talking about inventing, but the the same can be said about science; it's 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration.  Working out evolutionary relationships involves more than just looking at forms.  I did a quick look for an example and found this - Evolutionary ecology of carnivorous plants - that relates nicely to this discussion and also includes the ever valuable list of references.  People have probably posted it before, but I didn't notice.

 

[tonyc]

Um, I don't understand the numbers on the cladogram.
Anyone care to clarify them for me?
T.

 

[herenorthere]

Those are the results of statistical tests (bootstrap analyses).  Here's a website that tells more about the process, but doesn't actually give a nuts & bolts explanation. My knowledge of the subject is awfully shallow.