Animals

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and with the artificial tools like beehives and dams, I can also argue that its instinct

You can argue ANYTHING is instinct. Although humans never argue WE have instincts, but everything anything else does is by instinct.

 

[ktulu]

Quote[/b] (Zongyi_Yang @ Mar. 09 2005,3:56)]If hands and thumbs are an excuse, couln't they have at least learned war, nest building, etc.? I've seen tribes of monkies fight each other on tv, but I dont see them useing spears or anything like that. I dont see dolphins building dens out of leaves. If monkies do have a consciousness, they must know that useing a stick to poke is safer than useing their hands. So can we say that we are the only conscious ones on earth? Zongyi

Apes(greater apes atleast) do have artifical actions. Chimps engage in active warfare often using rocks as projectiles, and are quite accurate with them. They will attack using some basic tatics (small group distracts while larger group attacks from side/back). Apes build nests every nite to sleep in. The amazing thing about chimps is that they use tool and that the knowlegde is spread CULTURALLY, thats right humans are not the only creatures on earth with culture and warfare. Chimps have also been show to be able to use skills (like making stone tools, starting fire) they have to solve problems they have not encountered before. now again im not familar with non primate animals so thats the best i can do for you and my anthropology rant is done now.

Ktulu

 

[Zongyi_Yang]

Quote[/b] ]I hope it's cephalopods.

Did you see the movie The Future is Wild? They show squids being the next intelligent animal. Although its all very unlikely (any animal that does not have a very high pop will probably die out in stead of recover in the absince of humans, like pandas), its still a cool show.

Quote[/b] ]Evolution doesn't produce what's best, it produces what's good enough.

I never really thought of it that way. I always thought that evolution strives to produces a organism that can perserve its genes the longest.

Quote[/b] ]You can argue ANYTHING is instinct. Although humans never argue WE have instincts, but everything anything else does is by instinct.

That was what I was trying to say, but I guess I kinda missed it in my post. It was late and I frogot what I was saying

.

ktulu- I would have imagined rocks and stuff thrown, but again why havn't they advanced from that (I guess that this was explained with going to spears being very long and time consuming). Nesting I believe is not a sign of inteligence. I bet a bird who never saw a nest can build its own nest (correct me if I'm wrong). Like the spider, it does not bring us any closer to know if they have a consciousness. Zongyi

 

[ktulu]

Quote[/b] (Zongyi_Yang @ Mar. 09 2005,9:57)]ktulu- I would have imagined rocks and stuff thrown, but again why havn't they advanced from that (I guess that this was explained with going to spears being very long and time consuming). Nesting I believe is not a sign of inteligence. I bet a bird who never saw a nest can build its own nest (correct me if I'm wrong).

chimps make a consious choice about the rocks and stuff thrown which is part of it but also the nest building is culturally transmitted because there are differnces in the nests built by the chimps of Gombe and the Tai chimps, who live in differnt areas of africa.  If a young chimp is not shown how to build a nest it never will.  

Now the spears, chimps are not bipedal so how would they carry these spears, a hafted stone tool is pretty complex and what would be the advantage if they can not carry them with them.  Chimps do make very simple stone tools in the wild, so they have advanced their technology.  Also we dont see much good evidence for hafting until neadertals, which may likely have been a subspeices of human.  so you are asking chimps to jump ~5 million years of evolution to suddenly have spears.

again i dont know much about non primate animals so that is the best i can do for you

 

[Zongyi_Yang]

Well, I cannot dissagree that chimps do not have some sort of consiousness based on these arguements. You bring up a good point about not being bipedal

. Zongyi

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

whales/dolphins also have culture, as do some monkeys. They even do things just for fun.
I'm not sure about birds and nests, but I do know that some birds need to learn how to dance for their mate. I'm pretty sure i'm thinking about birds of paradise... but it may be something else. young males look like females and so they attract experienced males that dance for them and so they learn from watching other males trying to attract them lol.

 

[Finch]

We must remember that its not so much as brain size that determines intelegence but theyway it is wired.

I think that a good guage or intelegence is self-recognization. What is the importance in that? put a mirror infront of a octopus or robin and they will attak it. they cant figure out hat its not a competetor. Chimps and some other birds, like some New Zealand parrots, can recognize that it is themselves i the mirror and will move qnd examine parts of the body that they couldnt normaly see. Is this Councesnes? Pergaps. Parhaps not, but self-recongnition is apparently is a bg feat, atleast intelegence-wise.

 

[Finch]

all animals are pitted against eachother in smoe way, and virtually all plants are

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

human babies can't recognize themselves in the mirror... does that mean they aren't concious? (I know, I know, you didn't say that they weren't because they didnt' recognize themselves but it's just a thought)

 

[Zongyi_Yang]

Recognizing themselves in a mirror shows they understand how the mirror works, but dosn't show conciousness. They could be using it as another tool for grooming, althrough it does show they have curiosity. Dont forget that some animals are territorial, and would not like to see its copy.

Althrough all animals are against each other, its a physical and chemical war rather than a mental/technological war. Its always the one with the bigger fangs rather than brains that wins.

Good point TheAlphaWolf

. Zongyi

 

[Finch]

stop bashing me i never suggested that

 

[Finch]

and no, territorial species can recognize themselves in the meiror, and those that can are widely tought to be amoung the most intelegent of species

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

I know you didn't suggest that and I said it in my post. I didn't bash you one bit.

 

[Zongyi_Yang]

If its me thats bashing, I am terriably sorry. Althrough I cant see what I said wrong? I was just expanding on your thought

.

Looking it over, is it because I put that smiley face after agreeing with TheAlphaWolf? I was just saying he had a good idea. If it bothers you, I can remove it if you want

. Zongyi

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Time to change focus. Animal treatment now.
what do you think about modern farming? animal experimentation? pet shops and breeders?

 

[Nflytrap]

Not going to deny chimps being able to learn but warfare is instinct for many animals. After all, ants most likely have very limited learning capability(and much of the behavior is influenced by chemicals messages from other ants) to learn yet they wage war(if jealousy could be transmitted to territory and food suppy). I can't remember where I randomly read this but some who have observed some specie of leafcutter ant(Atta) claim they will use soldier termites as living machine guns! Lots of other more or less specialized "strategies" as well-dropping rocks down holes or using heads to block entrance-but I still doubt they involve any kind of learning. Humans have some "instinct" as well. No one needs to teach you and you don't have to think about putting out your hands to stop a fall. Its almost automatic. I believe that from fish up animals can learn to some extent.

Just some thoughts.