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I may lose all my plants

  • #81
What? No dynamite? If you need it i have The Anarchist Cookbook for reference. I'm serious, that's a real book.
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  • #82
yea its a real book... although not that great. The recipes are somewhat vague. At least the ones that are interesting
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  • #83
I have been asleep at the wheel on this one.
I am not surprised that this happened.
I had some cp in a window(when I had and office an not a cubicle) that I was forced to bring home by a "health committee" here at work. They said I could not feed crickets to them at work. Thing is, I did not fed them any bugs. They just assumed I was.
I hope you kick butt in this.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #84
Well, guess what happened, I was fined $150 for each plant, and they were confiscated and destroyed. LOL Not really.

Where's what happened. I expected to go in and this would just be laughed right out of court. I was wrong. I was asked if I wanted to plead guilt or not guilty. I said Not Guilty. I was asked if I have any dangerous plants or animals on my property. I said no. I was then asked if I had any plants or animals. I said yes. I was then told that I needed to list every plant and animal that I have. I said I had to many to remember. I would need some time to get a complete list. I was given a week to submit the list in writing. I then told the judge that I wanted ask that this case be dismissed because it is totally ridiculous. It is a case that has no merit and is a big waste of everybody's time. The judge said "Request is denied. You admitted that you had plants and animals that may be considered a public threat and another hearing would be setup to determine if they are dangerous." I told the judge that there is noway that anything I had could be considered dangerous. I then quoted the noticed I received.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
For purposes of citation issuance under this provision, an animal or plant shall be deemed to be vicious if it inflicts serious injury on a person or pet in unprovoked circumstances off the owner's premises, or if within any 12 month period, it assaults or attacks two or more persons in unprovoked circumstances off the owner's premises.

And.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
Section 8 d. Other Animal Conduct. It shall be unlawful for an owner to own, harbor, or keep any animal or plant which:

(1) Habitually pursues vehicular or pedestrian traffic upon any public road or highway within the Town;

(2) Kills, wounds, or worries any domestic animal while off the property of its owner;

(3) Habitually destroys the property of persons within the Town.


I told the judge that the only thing I have that can even possible do any of this would be our dogs and there is no law against the dogs that we have. I then asked her when was the last time she saw a plant chase a car? I was trying to make her laugh and make my point but she didn't think it was funny. She then cut me off and said that the notices also says,
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
It is also deemed vicious if it possesses an above normal aggressiveness, This includes but does not limit Pit bulls, Chow chows, Dobermans, Rottweilers, exotic animals or plants.
And.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
(4) Possesses an above normal ability to inflict harm to person or pet.

And there are some plants that can be considered dangerous and I'll have to prove that each plant and animal poses no threat to the general public. She said that the next hearing would be March 30th.

The prosecutor came over and said he would offer me a deal. He said if I would plead guilty today that I would be given a small fine and I would be given a time to find new homes for all my plants and animal. If I'm found guilty at the next hearing every plant or animal that is against the town ordinance will be confiscated and destroyed. I said No way. I told him that if he'd drop the charges, I won't make him look like a fool at the next hearing. OK I didn't really say that but I thought of it on the way home and I really wish I had.

So the way I understand it is I have to submit a list of my plants and animals, and then I have to prove that they are safe. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? I thought it was their responsibility to prove the case, not mine.

Well that is where it stands today.
 
  • #85
Show them pics of the plants where they are trying to "eat" you, and explain that only a pet cricked could be killed by them. I can give that as advice.

Also, tell them that Savannah Monitors are legal, and they can almost bite off a human hand! Also i once had a tarantula as a pet that could send a human to the hospital with one bite (that wasn't the one i handled all the time). It is also legal to own extremely lethal scorpions. Also, my neighbor has a pair of very vocal dobermans, those are still dangerous if they want to attack. Come on, this is rediculous.

Or we can all attend the meeting bringing our largest plant each. All in turn proving them "innocent"
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  • #86
[b said:
Quote[/b] (SarraceniaScott @ Mar. 22 2005,8:40)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (seedjar @ Mar. 21 2005,7:55)]I can't believe that anybody, especially someone as educated as a judge, would think that your plants could pose a trapping threat to anything but feeder mice and ant farms.
A law degree, IMHO, does not neccessarily mean somebody is particularly well-educated.
Heh, no, not neccessarily. Wishful thinking I guess.
So Ozzy... they already took and destroyed your plants? Whatever happened to due process? That makes me really angry. What's the worst that they could do, anyways? It's not like someone's pet bug is going to get loose, find it's way into your home, and get trapped. And even if that did happen, I don't see how it would be your fault. Have they even indicated which plants of yours are supposedly hazardous? It seems to me like the burden of proof here should rest with the prosecution, given that no one has been injured and your plants are on your own property.
It sounds to me like you could report just about anyone under this law and get them in trouble - how many people in your neighborhood have something like foxglove or castor bean or other toxic decorative plants? That above normal agressiveness stuff is crap - by that notion, rosebushes should be illegal because their thorns are a cutting hazard. I'd like to see which results in worse - a child falling onto a colony of flytraps or into a rosebush.
I hope you have a good lawyer, because somebody needs to take these people out. It sounds to me like, once this is straightened out, you have a good shot at a civil suit against the city and your landlord.
Best luck,
~Joe
 
  • #87
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So Ozzy... they already took and destroyed your plants?
That was a little joke, read the rest of the post.
I have a really bad lawyer, me.
 
  • #88
Ok I don't get this.The judge asked you if you have any dangerous plants or animals,you said no.Then she asked if you have any plants or animals,you said yes.Ok then at the end you wrote that you asked for this case to be dismissed and she said denied,then she said that you addmitted to having may be hazzardous plants or animals...NO YOU DIDN'T!!!You said NO to that part,You said yes to the part where she asked if you have just regular plain old plants and animals.You never addmitted to having possibly hazzardous animals!Am I right?Or did I misunderstand?Well Ozzy,I am terribly sorry.I honestly thought this wouldn't go any further than today.I wish you the best of luck on the 30th and please keep us posted.If you need someone to talk to(even tho I'm new and you don't know me)feel free to PM me.Plus I'm sure everyone else here wouldn't gladly talk to you
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BTW you scared the crap out of me with your first sentence!!!
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Good luck!*Niki*(Trapper7)
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  • #89
Wow you must have abad lawer. Ozzy don't make jokes. They hate that. Bring in a few plants and submit them as evidence. Obviously bring in cheep plants. Bring in a picture of your dog with you next to it. Go up to the judge look her in the eye and say "Do you beleve this dog is dangerous? It has never been reported against. If you say yes I hope your prepared to procecute all dogs in town."
Seriously say that. Don't let the proccuter push you around. You could even submit books as evidence. The judge has to look at evidence whether they want to or not. This will pprove no plant could injure someone or thing.
 
  • #90
OMG!!! I meant WOULD gladly talk to you!Oh stupid stupid me!!! I'm so sorry about that!My bad,LOL.*Niki*(Trapper7)
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  • #91
can't they go to your house and you show them everything? that would make it easier for them to understand and for you because you don't have to write down all the names and take pictures and all that.
 
  • #92
Well I guess if you ate a cp you could choke to death on it.LOL
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Jerry
 
  • #93
wow Ozzy, not exactly what i expected. we have a judge here who is a real bi......well lets say you dont want to appear infront of her but im pretty sure she would have had a good laugh at this. man what a pain Ozzy. i still think you will come out fine in the end due to the fact you are in the right but man what a hassel.

hmmmmm who on here works at a botanical garden or works at an University that studies plants that has a really official sounding title? maybe they would be kind enough to send you signed affidavit ASAP saying that there are no known carnivourus plants harmful to anything over say a rat sized critter. its the truth and may go along way with a judge in addition to all you come up with.
 
  • #94
i gotta ask:
what's the living situation going to be like after this mess? did you sign a contract? obviously you can't trust this landlord any further than you can reach him with a landlord-beating-stick, so can't you just move? i know moving is no easy task. i mean, you're going to have to move anyway right? i can't see you two looking back in a year and reminiscing. how far does this law extend? best of luck to you.
-julie
 
  • #95
Trapper, I admitted to having plants. There was a report that they could be a treat to the public. Now I have to prove that they are not. Maybe I wasn't to clear about that.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ] so can't you just move?

Are you crazy? it was hard enought trying to find a place to live where I could have all my meat eating plants and reptiles.
 
  • #96
Oh ok Ozzy,I gotcha.And yeah I asked the same question Pinkerton asked...what's gonna happen after this?I don't think you and your landlord are gonna best buddies after this.But yeah I know it's hard finding a place,but I'm scared for you cause if you win,your landlord might be pissed and he'll do anything to try to get you to move,but if he doesn't have a good reason then he can't,but then he'll just try to make your life a living hell.I've had a landlord who did that to me and my family and we ended up moving cause we couldn't take it anymore.They did things from BLASTING their music at all hours of the night,and crap like that.So yeah I'm not trying to scare you,I'm just saying be prepared cause people can be cruel,and you're landlord really doesn't sound like a nice guy.*Niki*(Trapper7)
 
  • #97
[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 22 2005,8:39)]can't they go to your house and you show them everything? that would make it easier for them to understand and for you because you don't have to write down all the names and take pictures and all that.
No, they can't come to your house because the "man eating plants will eat them". Not to mention his dog.

These people are total idiots (the guys prosecuting Ozzy i mean).
 
  • #98
I was talking with my dad, and he brought up some good points:
Someone asked "what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?" That rule applies to criminal cases, this is a contract case, so if it's claimed that the contract is being breached, it's up to you to prove that you're not.
Next, Ozzy, I don't think anyone has suggested this yet, but you should try to get in to contact with a biology professor at a local university. Getting even just something written from him would surely help in your case. I'd do it as a precaution if it's possible for you to do, and you simply cannot assume that you'll win a case just because you're right. Shame, really. :-\ Well, it'd sure help, in any case.
Mmm, I'm not sure if anything else was mentioned, but that's what I remember, if there's anything else noteable, I'll be sure to post it when it comes up. In any case, Ozzy, good luck (though, I hope you wont be needing luck). I think you have a lot of great suggestions here and I hope that all will go well. Keep us up to date.
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Watch some ambiguous link between CP and violence come up because of that guy who shot some of his church members the other day *rolls eyes*. Think happy thoughts
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--Jonathan T
 
  • #99
[b said:
Quote[/b] (0zzy @ Mar. 22 2005,5:05)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So Ozzy... they already took and destroyed your plants?
That was a little joke, read the rest of the post.
I have a really bad lawyer, me.
I see... I kind of got the impression that they had destroyed your plants already and were still holding you accountable to prove that they weren't a danger (e.g., if you couldn't prove that, they'd fine you.) Talk about sucking.
I really think that you should look into getting a firm to take your case pro bono. This is exactly the type of case that criminal defense lawyers hope and pray for; straightforward, petty matters which can be resolved with a few affidavits and some research. I think you have a good chance at winning it by yourself, but a lawyer can defend you with much less effort and will probably jump at the chance to file the civil suits.
In any case, I'd just love to do any number of unkind things to your antagonists, but I'll be polite and not enumerate them here. Again, best of luck.
~Joe

PS - Have you talked with any of the university-types on the forums? I know that Barry Rice isn't specifically a CP botanist, but isn't he curator of Galleria Carnivora (sp?)? That could probably pull some weight. I'm not particularly aware of other botanists on the forums... I've also got to reiterate, talk to someone in toxicology at the local hospital or call up poison control, as I think they'd have the documentation you really need to convince the court (or at least give them a lot of dry, technical medical literature to slog through.)
 
  • #100
At risk of alienating any in the forum, I'll just say prosecutors can be the lowest form of humanity and this one proves it.  It sounds to me like you have a prosecutor without a high profile terrorist or serial killer to beat up, so you'll have to fill in.

I'd contact not just distant university types, but also local high school science teachers or nature center directors or a nature-savvy reporter for a nearby newspaper and describe what's happening.  Point out your conservation credentials (NASC, ICPS, and whatever) and hope to create some public interest in your case.

Like defense attorneys, prosecutors further their ambitions by being publicity hounds, but they have the power of the state behind them.  The last they want is to look like an a**.  But, before trying to rally any public opinion to your side, what exactly is on your list of "dangerous" animals?  Reasonable people can be terrified of reptiles and you might not get much sympathy for a room full of slithery things with teeth.
 
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