Lets discuss beliefs

[endparenthesis]

We need some Muslims or Hindi or something on this board. The whole Athiest-Christian thing gets repetitive quick. I want to see what the major religions have to say to each other. Even just some more from the Judaism side would be nice.

 

[Wesley]

Quote[/b] ]
The big question is, would you even aspire to perform miracles? Jesus didn't want followers in the end, he wanted peers, wouldn't you say? "This you too can do."

The historical church of course didn't want you to stand next to Jesus, they wanted you to grovel. They couldn't get rich off of empowered people.

So pushing the church's manipulation out of your mind completely (and much of it is still around, not because people intend to manipulate, but because they don't know the difference... what they were taught is true as far as they're concerned) and following Jesus completely... why not believe you can be capable of what he was capable of? Could Son of God and Children of God be the same thing?

Actually He did tell us that we would be able to be able to do things greater than even the wonders/miracles He performed.

As for having other religions... you may not want that cause then you would have multiple religions telling that there is a God. But then when we got into our own little things about religion vs. religion you would feel left out as an atheist believing in not god.

 

[Finch]

and how are you shure there is a god and this is how it goes down?

 

[Treaqum]

I seriously doubt forgiving will heal wounds. I will never forgive Sadam that son-of-a-b%$#&. It's his fault my father died. D$#@ B$#@%*

 

[endparenthesis]

Quote[/b] ]Actually He did tell us that we would be able to be able to do things greater than even the wonders/miracles He performed.

Do you aspire to do so?

Quote[/b] ]As for having other religions... you may not want that cause then you would have multiple religions telling that there is a God. But then when we got into our own little things about religion vs. religion you would feel left out as an atheist believing in not god.

I'm not an athiest. But what I believe in is so unlike what people typically see as God that I just can't call it that. I have more in common with athiests than I do with members of orthodox religions.

 

[Amateur_Expert]

I'm not even going to try to read through the last pages. There are thousands of religions and for everyone one there are a hundred more versions. In order for me to belive something i think there should be one version that everyone belives in because no one can actually prove that any one religion is true over another. There being so many different versions and the fact that everyone on earth belives different versions is reason for me not to belive in it at all.

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]AS an opening statement, if feelings, etc. were made for humans to thrive, it certainly is working pretty poorly, people are getting killed all over the world, millions are depressed, angry, etc.

other animals have those kinds of feelings too. It might help as a population control.  loving feelings is just so people are social... and protect each other... therefore they survive. but you can't have a loving ushy mushy people because like we are doing right now they will deplete their resouces and they'll be doomed.

Quote[/b] ]Pride is a better one. If you are proud, what does that do? it hurts you, unable to accept assistance when it would actually strengthen you.

you like your "clan" and dislike other competing clans.

You seem to be forgetting that humans are social. You don't just have pride for yourself, you have pride (and other feelings) for your whole group (clan, state, whatever it might be).

Quote[/b] ]How does sadness help? Some kid is sad because he cant get a toy? Doesn't seem to benifit him or the human race.

also... you seem to be forgetting that humans weren't put here in big cities with toys and cars and spaceships. at first humans were small groups living in caves. If you love someone and loose them, of course you're going to be sad. sadness is just wanting to keep having happiness.

Quote[/b] ]to have an idea of "right and wrong" in your head, (i.e. if I kill someone in rage it eliminates a weaker human lets say, but I feel guilty. Why? Nature dusnt kno.)

you're not born with that. that's a by prodcut of being social. a little kid pushes some other little kid and feels good. it's only because their parents tell the kid that it's wrong (therefore next time he pushes another litte kid he will have negative feelings because his parents admonished him for doing that)

Quote[/b] ]Logic is about reason, and life has no reason thru science. It seems like nature has a mind, like nature has some sort of purpose. Extremely complex

(I know this is out of context lol) EXACTLY! "extremely complex"! you're just giving "nature" a mind because it is too complex for your little brain to comprehend (don't be offended by the way... I mean the whole human species)
the only reason life seems complex is because we are so simple.

Quote[/b] ] some without a plausible reason

everything has a reason. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Quote[/b] ]And also, I'd like to point out..you hear all sorts of stuff about supernatural things happening all over the world. Theres a little truth in every legend, and there has to be a little truth in at least one of them

so then why do you only believe what you want? you hear about zombees and UFOs and dwarves/elves/etc and all that other stuff... why do you only believe what you want to?

Quote[/b] ]Even scientists will agree Jesus existed.

... nobody has given me any of the promised documents...  I'm I speaking to the wall here? is that just another empty promise/statement like in the evolution thread?

Quote[/b] ]Religion is just around to describe the icompreshensable or unexplained.  The Ancients did not know what caoused weather so they had their gods have different moods.  Now we know about weather so gods don't control it anymore

yeah... doesn't weather seem to have a mind too? I mean... when you're in a bad mood it's rainy! yet you're in a good mood and it's all sunny and bright.

Quote[/b] ]What matters is what people do with the apple they are given.

but the apple makes you be a certain way! (remember the apple represented genes?) You can't do anything with your genes!

Quote[/b] ] He gave us CHOICES.  He doesn't want us to be mindless zombie slaves, He created us to fellowship with Him, but our choice was to be separated from him.

be my friend or SUFFER ETERALLY IN THE FIERY DEPTHS OF HELL!!!

Quote[/b] ]AS an opening statement, if feelings, etc. were made for humans to thrive, it certainly is working pretty poorly, people are getting killed all over the world, millions are depressed, angry, etc.

oh c'mon... pretty poorly?! PRETTY POORLY?!!! there are 6.5 BILLION people alive today! that's 1,000 times more than sustainable! http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20031124/humans.html

Quote[/b] ]And about the universe's expansion... yes, it seems we've avoided a crunch, but what if the universe goes on expanding forever?

that reminded me... scientists say that possibly trillions of universes are bubbling up every day in many dimensions.

 

[ktulu]

Quote[/b] (Wesley @ Mar. 26 2005,7:32)]I was the one that mentioned cannibalism.  I was not meaning to make it sound like a religion(it's the religion that causes the cannibalism)

religion is not a cause of cannibalism, it usally merely allows or fobids it, infact i dont know of a single religion that says you must be a cannibal.. Sometimes is a form of adaptation to a low protein diet, so times its a way of humiliating your enemies, there are alot of reasons for cannabalism and to attribute it to religion in all case is incorrect. So really cannibalism is connected to culture not religion.

 

[ktulu]

Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "christus" who is Jesus - Annals

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."

Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt


there i know its only one source but he admits jesus lived and seems to despise christians, so that is pretty good evidence if someone who loaths the religion will admit its holy leader existed.

 

[endparenthesis]

Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 27 2005,6:57)]

Quote[/b] ]And about the universe's expansion... yes, it seems we've avoided a crunch, but what if the universe goes on expanding forever?

that reminded me... scientists say that possibly trillions of universes are bubbling up every day in many dimensions.

I think I brought this theory up in the evo thread once:

http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/npr/

 

[Clint]

yep. every moment an infinite number of universes are created.

and my moment i mean a tiny fraction of a picosecond...even smaller!

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "christus" who is Jesus - Annals

... did you give me the wrong link? the word "christus" is nowhere in that page. Nor is "jesus". Hell... I can't even find the paragraph you're talking about.
and is jesus christ the only one at the time with that name? does it say anything about the crucifixion or his followers/anything to tie him to the guy who said he was the son of god?

 

[droseradude]

Quote[/b] ]
also... you seem to be forgetting that humans weren't put here in big cities with toys and cars and spaceships. at first humans were small groups living in caves. If you love someone and loose them, of course you're going to be sad. sadness is just wanting to keep having happiness.

Sadness isn't wanting happiness, sadness is a lack of happiness.
If someone died, wouldn't it be more convenient not to miss them, and instead want to live life on instead of sitting around and acting stupid?
And if everything has a reason/answer, how are scientists ever going to figure out why life exists. Since humans are so intelligent (able to arue about this in the first place) shouldn't whatever made them be MORE intelligent?
On the subject of right/wrong, it is natural to be selfish. Go for what YOU want, etc. And the only reason people aren't completely selfish is because of a sense in their head, (right and wrong) or in your belief, because of what their parents taught them.
But nobody likes a very selfish person, so why would nature make something that causes dissent among EVERYBODY?

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Sadness isn't wanting happiness, sadness is a lack of happiness.

I'm not happy right now. I'm I sad? no.

Quote[/b] ]If someone died, wouldn't it be more convenient not to miss them, and instead want to live life on instead of sitting around and acting stupid?

many things are byproducts of something else. sadness is a byproduct of happiness (at least that's what I think). Everyone wants joy. When that joy is taken away from you, you get sad.

Quote[/b] ]And if everything has a reason/answer, how are scientists ever going to figure out why life exists. Since humans are so intelligent (able to arue about this in the first place) shouldn't whatever made them be MORE intelligent?

it's impossible to find purpuse without making it up (in this situation) that's why science doesn't answer things like that. Science can answer certain how's and why's but some things are impossible.

Why does god exist?

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]Since humans are so intelligent (able to arue about this in the first place) shouldn't whatever made them be MORE intelligent?

no. opals are beautiful... does that mean that pressure and everythign else is more beautiful?

Quote[/b] ]But nobody likes a very selfish person, so why would nature make something that causes dissent among EVERYBODY?

... selfish people can suceed. Nature IS NOT GOD!!! nature HAS NO BRAIN!!! nature DOES NOT THINK! even my mom wants to give "nature" a brain. that's annoying!
if you can survive, your traits will survive. selfish people can survive. Sometimes more so than non-selfish people.

 

[ktulu]

Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 28 2005,2:33)]

Quote[/b] ]Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions "christus" who is Jesus - Annals

... did you give me the wrong link? the word "christus" is nowhere in that page. Nor is "jesus". Hell... I can't even find the paragraph you're talking about.
and is jesus christ the only one at the time with that name? does it say anything about the crucifixion or his followers/anything to tie him to the guy who said he was the son of god?

i didnt actully find it on that page i had it down from somewhere else and was just linking to what i thought was a complete set of the annals, i guess i was wrong. Although it doesnt say anything about his crucifixion, christus was the name for christ in latin, but anyways all you wanted was proof that he was real, well there it is, there is more but i cant find any thing else right now and i dont have time to search for it. plus im not a christian so i could careless if you do believe he ever existed, though if you dont i believe it is you who is ignoring facts that are inconvient to oneself.

 

[ktulu]

Quote[/b] (droseradude @ Mar. 28 2005,3:08)]the only reason people aren't completely selfish is because of a sense in their head, (right and wrong)

this sense of right and wrong is something that is created with in a culture, i can give a huge list of practices in other cultures you would find wrong, but are prefectly acceptable in that culture, look at the caste system in india, we find it awful that the people are forced to remain in a certain social status all their life because of who their parents are, but in that soceity it is accepted, and in alot of ways seen as the proper order of things. Conscience is culturally based. with out culture people would just do what ever they wanted to get what they wanted.

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

ignoring what facts? probably thousands of people were named jesus or christ or whatever.
and like I said I don't care if a guy named jesus christ that said he was the son of god existed. that still means nothing to me.
for them to be talking about that guy, the time frame must be right, the events must be right, etc.
and besides... I don't know where you got it from.

 

[ktulu]

Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Mar. 28 2005,3:39)]ignoring what facts? probably thousands of people were named jesus or christ or whatever.
and like I said I don't care if a guy named jesus christ that said he was the son of god existed. that still means nothing to me.
for them to be talking about that guy, the time frame must be right, the events must be right, etc.
and besides... I don't know where you got it from.

ok first off christ was not his name, he was jesus of nazareth(sp?). Christ comes from the greek word christos which means anointed one. if you dont care then why did you ask?
third you have the name of the writer, Tacitus, the dates he was alive, and the name of the book it was in The Annals. Sorry i couldnt find a complete version of it online, but you know you could go to a library and find a copy of the Annals im sure. see the fact that you say you dont know where i got it from proves to me that you are ignoring things when i stated it right there in that post.

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]if you dont care then why did you ask?

because I was promised some documents.

Quote[/b] ]third you have the name of the writer, Tacitus, the dates he was alive, and the name of the book it was in The Annals. Sorry i couldnt find a complete version of it online, but you know you could go to a library and find a copy of the Annals im sure. see the fact that you say you dont know where i got it from proves to me that you are ignoring things when i stated it right there in that post.

so now i'm supposed to do the research for you? you're the one who's trying to prove to me that there are documents saying jesus existed. You're the one who says he found that quote and now can't find it. what makes you think i'm going to find it?
and no, I didn't know where you got it from. I didn't know what annals ment!