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What are your views and opinions?

Cindy

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After years of feminism and liberation, we women leave our traditional job of a housewife and join the work force.

We slog day and night trying to impress our bosses, garner support from subordinates and colleagues and climb the corporate ladder.

Just as we manage to see some light at the end of the tunnel and feel there is hope yet for a woman in the battle field *click* the light goes off!

Irony is, the one to turn the light off is another WOMAN! So that's what women have been asking for, more rights to jobs for themselves yet they will not promote or support a fellow female. I'm baffled.

My friend was just sharing with me the other day how her female boss made life difficult for her at work and was all out to thwart her promotion. We came to a conclusion that we ladies are mostly valued and promoted by men!

True?
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possibly. But as you know you still have yet to be equal in the US. (Equal rights admendment anyone?). So you have yet a little while to go. I am not an employer or anything but I would think that the puritian work ethic should apply (the better work the better pay/benifits (I know I changed that alittle but it still works)).
 
on women in combat. a very good friend of mines sister is in the Army i think. she is incharge of quite a few troops here in the states. ofcourse she wasnt sent into combat with the rest of her group. i sat and talked with her about it and even though she is as gung ho as the come and would love to be in the thick of things. even if she was allowed to actually fight she would refuse. she said she knew the men in her platoon would worry and want to spend their energy protcting her rather than do their job. she flt that since her being there would be detrimental to what her platoon or what ever was supposed to accomplish. all this is from a woman who would like nothing more than be in the thick of things. after chatting with her ive some what changed my view of women in combat. i dont think they should be down on the ground fighting with men. however i see nothing really wrong with throwing them in a jet fighter or chopper and sending them out.

on everything else i believe men and women should be equals. hell ive seen Darlas job at the newspaper. i know i couldnt do a better job.
 
In this society, women are discriminated against in terms of WAGE: many jobs held by women are paid less than would be the case if it were a male.  This is some relic form of punishment meted out for the sins of Eve in the Garden of Eden mythology.  Women ate the apple, and ruined it for the boys.

Early human tribes were supported by hunters who were male.  Women were left to gather and tend.  The hunters were off bringing in food - but they had to be silent.  The women on the otherhand could freely talk and exchange knowledge about cultivation techniques and healing, and after centuries of keeping what they learned and observed alive generation to generation amongst themselves came to acquire both knowledge and wisdom.  This gave them POWER to heal and deal.  Once society shifted from hunting to cultivation, women came to the fore (and this was prior to the advent of Christianity where women have always been second class citizens).  

Before allopathic medicine reared its ugly and oft times useless head, the women *were* the medical profession.  Once the AMA was formed, the first order of business was the outlawing of the Midwives and a loss of that power held for so long by Woman.  Once the women were removed from their position of empowerment, male dominated factions have insured that it will remain so, despite the "womens revolution" and while giving lip service to the concept of "equality".  

These two elements have set the course that history has flowed within in this country.  The mental prototype was exploited by TV writers/advertisers who presented stereotyped images and force fed a generation addicted to TV, picked up and reinforced through state education although not always overtly. The popularity of John Wayne and Ernest Hemmingway went a long way into creating a male image that in most instances is impossible for most men to meet, but must be presented if one is to have a place in the herd - a horrible dichotomy where males must present in ways they do not feel and believe in order to avoid social rejection.  In my case, I had to "learn" football to fit in with the construction company I was working for.  I had to be "one of the guys" even though I have no interest in the sport.  To this day I wonder if all the enthusiasts there well really all that enthused!

I worked for 6 years in an office of 35 women, and I was the only male.  I can tell you from experience that the promotion of women by women is NOT frequently based on skill and ability, and from my experience men are more likely to promote women based on skill and not nose color.  

Here the tide is turning again as women continue to dominate the work force (although still at lower wages).  Oriental culture is far older and far more entrenched regarding the subservient treatment of their women.  I would not care to be a woman in Japan.

Women should NOT be allowed in combat, and Rattler's example is right on.  Men have an instinctive urge to protect woman, and this would affect every equation.  You cant outthink instinct although many like to think they can!

On the other hand, men have paid *dearly* for their social control.  There never was a "Men's Liberation" movement like we had for women in the 70's.  Most men are raised to serve, work, suffer in silence and die.  Men are not allowed to cry.  Men are not allowed many of the enriching pleasures afforded to the fairer sex and are taught to amputate their sensibilities and pleasures.  Women have a rich and ornamented life.  Women get gifts like satin brocades, sweet candies, pretty flowers and gems.  Men get tools.  Women can touch, laugh, cry, sing, dance.  If men do this they are looked upon as being queer and are Powerfully discriminated against (and very much so in the job market).  Women have had the TIME to produce art and beauty -  but it is a rare man that is happy if he isn't busy at the job.  Most men just don't have anything to fill the space with except more work (I would think most males here on the forum are the exception to the rule and bet dimes to doughnuts they have been made to FEEL different too!). Even so, it is the rare ones that reject this overwhelming pressure and seize again the right to create, express, emote and enjoy - but they are the REAL men of courage and strength. We need to move on to where these qualities are NOT regarded as "effiminate". These are the birthright of both sexes. Without them, life is one long row to hoe.

So, it isn't all pretty for the men either.  We make the big bucks, but you know, money isn't everything!

I don't know the pressures that shaped the Oriental cultures where for so long women were and are treated like cattle.  HEre it was mythology and a dedicated attack by powerful male dominated financial interests that have produced the social inequality in what certainly should be a mutual partnership.

Men AREN'T from Mars, nor are Women from Venus! The apparent radical and special differences are only on the surface. As HUMAN BEINGS we need to become aware of this, and stop affirming (and thereby TEACHING) the nonsense that we are so different.
Those differences have been foisted onto us by Church, State and Media, and I 4 1 don't buy it! Now, where did I put my mascara?

Well Cindy, I hope you get your raise!  It is safe to say that you are probably better at what you do than your male counterpart: women HAVE to try harder.  It's a shame that they are not equally compensated for this effort.
 
Tamlin, i love your point on sports. while i can fallow most sporting events i cant get into them unless i have a family member playing. i watch my brothers football games and my sisters tennis and volleyball matches with great interest but other than that i generally care less about organized sports.

as far as gems and flowers for presents: gemstone rough, cut stones and orchid plants are common gifts from Darla to me. i think your right, Tamlin, in that most male members of this forum are going to have a slightly different outlook on the stereotypical relationships between the sexes than the majority of the population. by enjoying plants we have opened the door to other areas. Tamlin as always you put things so much better than i can.
 
A lot of confusion about the world melts away when you resist the urge to categorize people (including gender). Then you're forced to deal with everyone on an individual basis.
 
Well the Supreme court can only do so much. Same for congress (Act in 1988...said Equal pay for equal work). Anyone know the name of that act?
 
Lots of early societies were matriarchies. I believe quite a few Native American tribes were, too, from what I have read. while the men were off hunting, the women were off raising babies, tending herds or planting things. Or all three at the same time. We were the first multi-taskers. April
 
I support women in combat. Not because it's going to have the best results (a couple people mentioned some legitimate factors) but because I don't feel it's legitimate to "allow" them to or not. I just can't imagine telling someone they are "not allowed" to do something because they are the wrong gender.

Capslock
 
  • #10
Some men are fit for combat. Some men aren't fit for combat. Some women are fit for combat. Some women aren't fit for combat. It's really that easy.
 
  • #11
first let me say that we do not know for sure that only the men hunted in forager societies.  Although it is likely that men did the majority of hunting it is not uncommon for women to participate in localized hunting and to hunt more exensively when they do not have young children that need to nurse.

As for the oriental cultures i think what tamlin really means in soceities with a confucian past (China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam)  Which is also the source of the repression of women. A lot of the cultures that were present until missions destoryed them were matriachal or atleast valued women and assigned them powerful leadership roles.

And although this country likes to pretend everything is equal among all people not just genders we are far from achieving that goal.
 
  • #12
Darn!
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A flying ant came and went into the keyboard. I didn't want to hurt that little fellow and lifted my hand to stop typing. I knocked the mouse, the cursor flew to "X" and my reply to this thread got closed!
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Now let me continue. Singapore is heavily "asian". Majority chinese, very confusion...oops confucian. My grannny came from China. She married my granddad at the age of 16 and was left there for 10 years when he came to Singapore to work. She came here only after some seniors sent for her when my grandad was seeing a local lady. MY granny bore him three sons which is very, very few children by chinese standards. But despite being left to live as a widow in China for that long period of time, she has NEVER mentioned it to us. Not even to my dad or his siblings. We heard it from the other octagenarians. I admire her for that, surprisingly. The only complain she had was that my granddad didn't talk very much when he was still alive! I for one wouldn't wait for 10 years! And would definitely flame that fellow for as long as I live!
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Things have changed a lot now. If I were her, I would still work but will be selling porridge and fried noodles or be carrying stuff at the construction sites. If I were her I would have to serve my husband his cup of tea every morning without fail. I would not be able to tell my eldest son off. I would be expected to lie down like a dead fish when he wants the u-know-what.
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And I would not be able to be still alive now at the age of 93 and having looked after my 27 year-old granddaughter when I was 88!

I wasn't lamenting about being treated unequally but Tamlin summed it all up when he wrote:

"I worked for 6 years in an office of 35 women, and I was the only male. I can tell you from experience that the promotion of women by women is NOT frequently based on skill and ability, and from my experience men are more likely to promote women based on skill and not nose color."

True, some women do sleep their way up but the men are also the ones who are more fair in giving a promotion!

I love men. My dad, then my brother then my husband. And I do love male bosses. They are less nit-picky and aren't bothered by the nitty-gritty. Female bosses are often jealous of how you look, how you talk and even how you walk!
 
  • #13
Why is it still so common in work and home for women to ask men to do heavy lifting and brute force labor for them? Not all women but still very common none-the-less.
 
  • #14
in china males are much favored over females as childeren. Some birthers that birth children offer to snap the neck of a infant if it is disscovered to be a female. this practace has lead to a skew in the male/ female ratio there.

PS. how exactly would some be considerd not fit for combat?
 
  • #15
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Women can touch, laugh, cry, sing, dance.  If men do this they are looked upon as being queer and are Powerfully discriminated against (and very much so in the job market).

Men can be tough, spit, punch, cuss. If women do this they are looked upon as being queer and are powerfully discriminated against (and very much so in the case of some jobs).

Women are stereotyped and society tries to make them all a certain way, just like it does to men. Women are "supposed" to be cute, girly and feminine, and if they're not, and choose to instead be tougher, stronger, capable and never wear stereotypical feminine clothes, people automatically assume them to be lesbian and shun them just because they defy the female stereotype. Trust me, I know. I get that BS from alot of people because I'm not girly and I don't wear dresses or skirts or makeup or skimpy, sexy clothes or behave like a submissive little lady-like cutsie-poo. If a man does something normally attributed to the likes of women, they are considered queer. If a woman does something normally attributed to the likes of men, they are ALSO considered queer. And this is how the world is. It's full of stereotyping, narrow-minded snobs.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]PS. how exactly would some be considerd not fit for combat?

If they're not physically or mentally able.
 
  • #16
According to religious/political commentator Jerry Falwell the "feminists" is part of the reason that god allowed 9/11 to take place! Not to mention all the gays and pagans running around!  
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But seriously I believe in equality for all no matter sex/orientation, age, race or religion. Unfortunately the world does not operate the same way.

As far as women (or gays) in combat it doesn't matter to me who's in the army, as long as I'm not there with you! I have no desire to kill anybody and I don't know why anyone would. If you're into murdering people I guess the army would be the place to go if you wanna do it.

I should add that all the women I know have no desire to march & die either.
 
  • #17
Yeah, well, Jerry Falwell can bite me.

Lewis Black on that (paraphrased): "Oh REALLY! I guess God looked down and saw the kitchens empty and the seasoning racks disorganized and said 'I will smote them!' Jerry Falwell says God told him this. Well, that's funny, because I was talking to God on the phone the other night... and he said it was because of people like Jerry Falwell."
 
  • #18
If my husband can bear the children for me, I'll gladly take on the mopping as well...that being more heavy duty than vacuuming the floor.
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The point is, women ask for equal rights. Not to be equal to men. I have no problem with being the weaker sex, not being able to do heavy lifting and exert brute force. Men are just physically stronger and we can't change the fact. I know that 'cos I was flung across the room when my husband pushed me. For fun!! lol

Being a chinese girl, I have been given more rights than a lot of women in the world. Right to talk back to my parents (with reason, of course), right to choose whom I want to love and marry, right to say yes and no, right to wear revealing clothes...
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And the stumbling blocks to my career are women who do not have the confidence in themselves. They believe in bad-mouthing you and making you look really bad 'cos they can't be any better. Thank goodness my boss is a male now. To be fair, not all female superiors are insecure idiots. I have got very good mentors that are always ready to give me a push. And even for me to step on their shoulders to move up.

But generally, more women make life difficult for other women than men. In my society, at least. Maybe less so in other countries? *shrug*
 
  • #19
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I support women in combat. Not because it's going to have the best results (a couple people mentioned some legitimate factors) but because I don't feel it's legitimate to "allow" them to or not. I just can't imagine telling someone they are "not allowed" to do something because they are the wrong gender.

You know, Caps, you're right. Women are perfectly capable....Beleive me, I FIGHT with some on a weekly basis. However, the point about instinctively protecting them....While I'm not sure it's INSTINCTIVE, more like learned, it is never the less true. Solution: All female units.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Men can be tough, spit, punch, cuss. If women do this they are looked upon as being queer and are powerfully discriminated against (and very much so in the case of some jobs).

You obviously have never met any women from New York!
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Those very qualities in a woman are VALUED by many men around here. Many of us NY males like "stong" (read: oppinionated and not afraid defend that oppinion) women. My wife, in fact, is quite tough. She doesn't cuss all that much (I try not to give her any reason to
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), she's not afraid to let fly if the situation demands it.

And she's got one heck of a right cross....
 
  • #20
There are some women I'd LOVE to see in combat!
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Last summer we hired a 50-ish woman at the lab. I had an opportunity to alk about stuff with her and she told me that she absolutely hates working with other women - that cattiness, etc...

My wife told me about how junior high girls do this "shunning" thing when they don't like another girl. Whereas boys will just beat up another boy, physically, in the bathroom, girls beat other girls emotionally.

Earlier this weak I read an article about how 4 year old girls have the capability of doing the shunning things as well. Now that's scary!

Of course all of the are tendencies and not absolutes. For instance, the girls & women on this forum tend to be different than the stereotypical mainstream, much less stereotypically feminine - dare I say, "boys in girl's bodies".

The guys are just glorified sadists.
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Um.. So are some of the girls!
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