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Terrorist attack

  • #121
[b said:
Quote[/b] (aprilh @ July 16 2005,7:08)]Please tell me exactly HOW our invasion helped the Iraqi people. How has their standard of living been improved?
Hello... they where liberated. Does that not count for crap?
 
  • #122
yeah it does but their standard of living has gone DOWN.

i'd rather not be liberated and have a high(er) standard of living than have liberty and live in a cesspool.
 
  • #124
Laura, I'm pretty sure your email was a newspaper column by a European MEP we have called Robert Kilroy Silk. I've deleted the part which caused uproar over here - the ill informed remarks about Islamic countries.
 
  • #125
Ah, that's ok Alexis. You took action based on your experience with the e-mail.  Good for you to remove that which might be deemed offensive. I wouldn't have even noticed if you hadn't mentioned anything. I literally cut and pasted it from an e-mail that I received from a girlfriend earlier today.  Hope all is as well as can be expected by you given what happened in London. You folk are pretty resilient like us over here I have come to learn.
 
  • #126
Reading this has made me sit and think a little, but I keep coming back to the same conclusion. We are doing the right thing!!!! I have yet heard anyone mention that Saddam was funneling money from the oil for food program into his escilating military budget. I can't remember who said it, but someone said Saddam's WMD were all destroyed?? Bull Hocky. He let them destroy some, but not all. There was reports of a convoy leaveing Iraq prior to the war, but nothing was done about it. Also, think of how much desert is out there and how easy it would have been to build an underground facility covered by sand. Personaly I believe the weapons were shipped to Saudi Arabia. Heck he knew we were coming. Why face the full wrath of the US when we find WMDs when you can try to make us lok like fools for not finding what we claimed were there. ALSO, there may have been inspectors in Iraq prior to the war, BUT they did not have full and unrestricked access to all the WMD sites. They were told where they could and could not go. A clear violation to the UN sactions placed on him. The UN was just not willing to enforce it so we did it ourselves.

Bugweed you keep saying why do we have to be the worlds cops? We do because we are a superpower. With that power comes responsabilities. You can't expect to ignore a problem and it go away. If you want it to not get to you you have to stop it at its source. Look at WWII as an example we tried to stay out of that, but the fight came to us. A superpower cannot sit back idle while people are out to kill every hint of freedoms in the world.

I have head people say why havn't we gone to North Korea or Saudi? I believe its coming. I hate to say it, but I think those two are in the future. Saddam has just proven himself cabable of using WMD that he has possessed. So far the other two countries have not, but best believe they both possess them.

I for one though we should have taken Saddam out the first war. Heck we had delta force on his back door, but Bush SR didn't give the word to take him out. That would have caused a big comotion we were not prepared for at the time, but I still think we should have done it.

Things are getting better over in Iraq. Their standard of living is going up they have access to medicin and things they didnt under Saddam. He is no there to hord them from his people. True water and things may be disrupted, but thats the militants causing those problems after our contractors build the plants and things. Saddam was a threat plain and simple. He was out for more weapons and there is no denying that. We KNOW FOR A FACT about the funneling of oil for food money. So please stock kidding yourselves when you think Saddam a monster WE created was not trying to come back and bite us in the butt.

Yes we created Saddam. We supported him back in the Iran Iraq war. I think thats when it was. Anyways we did support him and helped him take power of that country. I think it may have been either sit back and do nothing or let the soviets take control or something or other. Hopefully someone knows a little mroe about that than I do. We make decision based on the era they happen and the time frame too. I never said we have never made bad desitions, but I think the one we are making now are justified.

We lost alot of inocent men women and children during the civil war and the revolutionary war. Its a fact of war. I;m not happy about the fact, but its a fact none the less. There was no diplomatic way around it. Saddam was not going to give up without a fight, but he sure did take off fast when we came for him.
smilie4.gif
Shows you how much of a coward he really was.


ok I think I have said enough and if I think of some more I will post it. I;m gone to go get some dinner have fun everyone.
 
  • #127
" I can't remember who said it, but someone said Saddam's WMD were all destroyed?? Bull Hocky. He let them destroy some, but not all. There was reports of a convoy leaveing Iraq prior to the war, but nothing was done about it."

I said weapons inspectors destroyed tons and tons and tons of it. Probably all of it. Chem and bio weapons have a shelf life. Any left now would be much less effective. We had 13,000 special forces on the ground looking for WMD..plus the regular Army, Navy, Marines and thousands of contractors. If there were WMD, why did the President call off the search? Why didn't Saddam use them on our troops when we first invaded?

"Things are getting better over in Iraq. Their standard of living is going up they have access to medicin and things they didnt under Saddam. "

Tell it to the 90 people who were killed in a truck bomb yesterday. Tell it to their families, too, while you're at it. Also share with them how fortunate they are to have really tiny water and electric bills.

Liberated means you can walk out of your house without fear of getting blown up. THAT'S liberation. What they got over there now is Anarchy.

"ALSO, there may have been inspectors in Iraq prior to the war, BUT they did not have full and unrestricked access to all the WMD sites."

According to the chief weapons inspector at the time, Hans Blix, you are wrong. They were able to go anywhere and everywhere...including Saddam's palaces.

I believe we supported both Iran and Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war.

I feel really, really bad for our soldiers, and the innocent civilians of Iraq. I wish they HAD discovered WMD..then this would not seem to be such a horrible and tragic waste of lives, and hundreds of billions of dollars.
 
  • #128
Tisk Tisk My dear April you can not make an omlet without first breaking some eggs. The Iraqi people are liberated. They have the world fastest growing stock market< and its all done on dry erase boards at the moment. So my dear girl don't go around thinking that its all for not. I don't like loosing those solders as much as you don't, but the world is a better place because of it. You and I both know that Saddam has used Chem weapons before. What makes you think that if he was able to buy an ICBM (intercontinental bolistic missile) that ne would not fire them at us. I have no doubt in my mind that he had WMDs AFTER the supossed destruction. Someone said it already if you tell him your coming what in the heck else are you going to do but move them out. Sadam didn't have enough balls to keep them and try an attack yet. The state of his military at the time of invasion was laughable, but bet your tush that he was trying to get bigger abd beter guns. They know he was diverting oil for food money to his military programs. They know he was withholding food and medicine from his people. And Yes I gave a toot long before W said we should. I was in 7th grade when the first Iraq war broke out and thought we should have done more them. So April don't get discoraged. When you have a giant hornets nest in a tree in your back yard and you go to get rid of it sure your going to sture up the hornets in the process, but its nessisary to get rid of the nest. Everything in life can't be all nice and plesant. Sometimes they have a heavy price to pay, but they are a nessisary evil. We have gotten to spoiled and forget the meaning of sacrifice. Have you forgoten all the bloodshed that happened over here to gain our independance? What makes you think its going to be any different over in Iraq to have them gain theirs? They are human like you and I and shouldn't they have the right to be free too? Obviously you don't think to because all your worried about is the money we are spending and the soldier. True those are important things, but you have to look at the big picture. We are a superpower and with that comes responsability. During the time of our civil war the paying field was equal the guns we had were the same as the guns they had roughly anyways. Now the tables are stacked so high against the Iraqies that they could not liberate themselves. Saddam's army was good at keeping lightly armed civilians in check. They just needed a helping hand and were to afraid to ask for it. So in the perfect world we could have solved this without fireing a shot and everything would be peaches and cream, but its not and some eggs had to be broken and hornets stured up.
 
  • #129
April,

You're expecting things to happen way to quickly. That's the problem with this "I want it now" society we live in. We are a couple of years into this thing. Do you think post war Europe had electricity, running water and sewage all up and running within weeks or even years after the end of WW11? It took a decade or more to repair much of the war damage, and that was without radicals continually blowing things up and killing anyone and anything all in the name of "The Religion Of Peace." Unfortunately ,we have probably a minumum of another 3 years of this very pattern. Consider the consequences of just up an pulling out now. Iraq would really descend into an abyss, and what would emerge would probably be a state simmilar to Iran.

JJ
 
  • #130
Jason,

You answered exactly NONE of the questions I posed.  Of COURSE we can't pull out now, the place would descend into immediate civil war, instead of the one that's 6 months off if we stay there.  We broke it, and now we have to fix it. But if we hadn't gone there in the first place.....look at how many of our troops would still be alive, not counting Iraqis who are blown up in car bombings every day. This war was NOT worth the life of 1 American soldier.  Iraq was not a threat to us. Period.  Even if they had gotten an ICBM...they didn't have had the stuff to put into it!  D'oh!~ Your president wanted this war for revenge and for oil.  He was planning for it YEARS before it went down. It's that simple, and there is a paper trail to support my view.  

"Everything in life can't be all nice and plesant.  Sometimes they have a heavy price to pay, but they are a nessisary evil. "

Gee, Jason, thank you for letting me know how the world works.  I feel so much better now.

"When you have a giant hornets nest in a tree in your back yard and you go to get rid of it sure your going to sture up the hornets in the process, but its nessisary to get rid of the nest."

I'd leave it the hell alone, actually.  And I DO have one in my back yard, and have had one for years.  A Bald-Faced Hornet's nest. I've never been bothered by them. They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Bad analogy to use.  

"What makes you think its going to be any different over in Iraq to have them gain theirs?  They are human like you and I and shouldn't they have the right to be free too?"

The point you're missing is this...ARE they free?  can they go where they want, when they want?  Can they go to the market without the possibility of being shot or blown up?  Can they do a load of laundry whenever they wish? Can they have a glass of water? Will their garbage be taken? Can they go out to dinner and take in a movie, perhaps? Will their air conditioners have the power required to make them work?  The answer to all these questions is no.  

The best your side can offer is "they can go to school." Yes they can! If they don't get blown up on the way.
 
  • #131
I would not tell a soldier that fought in that the war that it is not worth 1 soldiers life. I would have to say they would disagree with you. Also we cannot go to the market w/o the possiblity of being shot, but I would still say we are free. Dislike the president all you want but the war has and will continue to make the world a safer and more free place. And like I have said before this war had nothing and I repeat nothing to do with oil. If we wanted it all we had to do was take it. I guarded an Iraqi oil field for 6 months to make sure the terrorist did not blow it up, just to give it back to the Iraqi's when the threat had past. Your dislike for your president has clouded your vision.
 
  • #132
I think it's kind of silly to argue over the condition of Iraq, seeing as things are very different from how they were even two years ago and changing every day, and none of us are there. From what I can cull from independant media and my friends who're deployed, it's not a very happy place, but how good of a grip do we have on what it's like in Iraq on a good day?
What makes me upset about this war is the way it was executed. For oil or not, Bush was in totally bad form from September 11th on. The Patriot Act and all of the associated legislation that has followed it is a shame to the American way. With each passing day the war seems less about foriegn affairs and more about changing the law, reinterpreting the Bill of Rights and fouling things up for us Americans.
Regarding superpowers, consider this; China is a superpower. The USSR was a superpower. Would you have had them enforce their views and policies upon the rest of the world whenever they had an oppertunity? Somehow I doubt your answer will be a sincere, "yes." Beyond that, how many superpowers have 'worked out?' I can't think of a single nation or empire that has endured and maintained a large sum of power (although Microsoft may soon prove me wrong,) but I can think of plenty of small nations that keep to themselves, take good care of their own people, and rarely have any trouble. If we're so 'super,' why does it suck to live here? Even if we are a superpower, is that morally, or even economically right? Whatever your morals, you have to see the folly in it. Superpowers breed resentment and unrest, both within and outside their borders. Why do you think the Arab nations are so riled up about the US to begin with? It's not because the Kabbalah says, "Americans are bad." Things will come full circle. The more we take, the more we will be made to give; it's just how things work. The world needs balance.
Before we worry about telling others what to do, I think it's important that we get our own affairs in order. Why should we be changing other nations when our own has fallen into neglect and squalor? If things are so bad in other countries, then people should move someplace where things are better, or revolt on their own and call for assistance as they see fit.
We should be worrying about our national debt, our failing school systems, our rising and inaccurately reported unemployment, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. You may think that we can handle all these problems at the same time, but take a look at how much time Congress and the Legislature spend on war and foriegn affairs issues, or our military budget and then compare it to the resources we give to education, social welfare or medical care. Domestic problems are going nowhere fast. What strikes me as particularly tragic is that, as much as we divert towards the war, things don't seem much better there either. Sure, after WW2 it took time to rebuild, but there's a key difference between now and WW2; the liberated countries after WW2 were happy about the foriegn presences.
Somehow, I feel that Americans have lost their perspective, tucked in the serenity of North America. We don't have much to worry about, and when there is something to worry about, we panic because it's such a rare occurance. We treat our president like a king, regarding his word as the definitive American perspective, rarely looking back on the lessons we learned in building this nation. I mean, give me a break; we can't even burn flags any more. The symbols of our nation have become more important to us than its principles. It's a very depraved state of affairs. The very fact that this topic evokes so much emotion and fervor suggests to me that we're missing the bigger picture.
~Joe
 
  • #133
ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS!
 
  • #134
Absolute power does corrupt I agree with that statement. Now to the China being a superpower. That may be so, but our military is far superior to their military by far. Your right we need things to be fixxed over here too. There is so much waiste and corruption over here it isnt funny. We do need more than 2 parties in power. I too dislike voting for the lesser of two evils, but the fact remains we are better off having Bush in office than Gore or Kerry ANY DAY!!! I don't know how I would feel about China trying to push thier viewpoints on other nations seeing as how they are comunist and all. But wait we have those here too they are called hard core democrats. Although thats another story. And April just imagine Saddam getting ahold of the ICBM and then buying one of those missing Russan nuclear weapons. Now there is something scary. not all those have been accounted for. Also do you think we knwo the entire story about Iraq? I can garantee we don't. There is so much classified info on them and other nations its unreal. Sure it would be great if we did know all the answers. Oh and the hornets nest analogy i think was a good one. You must not have children around that nest. Hornets are nasty bugs that bite and sting. I sure wouldn't have any nests around now much less when I have children. I still find it hard to believe that you still think it was better to have the Iraqie people living in such repression because they had running water and other services. That doesn't make you free. Things will get better I promise you. It is just not going to be over night. I happen to agree with Wolf that if we watned the oil we wouldn't be waisting all the resources building the water plants and power plants for the Iraqies. We would have just fixxed the oil wells and pumped the oil and forgot about the Iraqi people. Thats not going on though. I have ranted enough I think. I know its all unoragnized. Sue me. I need to go get back to work. But just one more thing before I go. I really would like to know the HONEST reaction of the folks against the war if Gore was in office and did nothing like I know he would have done after 9-11. Then we would have gotten attacked again from another source that happened to originate from Iraq or another terrorist country. What about if things got like they are over in Isreal where terrorist attacks are happening very very frequently. You would be begging for something to be done about it. BUT NO when something is trying to be done about it we keep complaining about that.

Have fun And I think Iran or North Korea is next BTW.


Also not to be ugly but if things are so bad here turn over your citizenship and live someplace else. We have it far better over here than anywhere else in the WORLD. No its not perfect and we have a bunch of laws we shouldn't but its still better than any other nation on earth. Sorry everyone it just burns me up when people say how bad it is here. Granted some folks have it bad, but its nothing like other countries.

Also Wolf9striker Thank you for serving our country!!!!!
 
  • #135
Ya know, I heard all this same B.S. when I protested the Vietnam war. The war has changed, but all the same rhetoric is still spewing from mouths that do not wish to face the truth. We are in Iraq on a LIE. The Bush Administration perpetrated that lie. They plunged us into debt up to our ears, ignored world opinion, have become inconsiderate bullies, pushing their weight around. Sold those who are unthinking enough a bill of goods about how we need to shove our way of life down these peoples throats so they can be like us, and be free. Which I see less and less of these days. Freedom, that is. This government of ours has insinuated itself into our homes, into our lives, don't allow us to correct our children, but let them run rampant, and then prosecute the parents for things their kids do. Neat trick. In Fresno, an 11 year old girl threw a rock at a kid who was bullying her, and gave him 4 stitches. The police are called, they come in, guns drawn, grab an 11 year old girl, throw her to the ground, Knee in the back, the whole nine yards, and call HER the criminal. THAT ACTION was criminal, but the cops will no doubt get away with it, because the people in this country don't have the sand to stand up for what is right and true. It is the rights of all of us to NOT go to war. To Not want the government to speak for me in this way, and to bring these kids home from where they should never be. Afghanistan is where it is, not Iraq. The man who started it all is still over there. And he is their hero for standing up to the great Satan (thats us by the way) and feel justified because we are in their lands. And it just will not go away. Religious zealots have always been with us and have always been a major thorn. But we allowed the lying government to do it to us again. And filled peoples heads with crap, and being so smart, they ate it up, and now its snapping back. And most of you don't even know it. This isn't over by a long shot, and before you know it, it'll be in your face. And maybe then, you will see the can of worms we, as a society, have become. I am done with this thread, so tear it, me, this post, whatever, up in any way you see fit. B.S. is B.S., and all the words in the world can't change it. War is the largest of all the cans of B.S. And worse when it is sitting on a huge lie.
 
  • #136
Well it doesn't seem like anyone is going to change any minds here in this lifetime. Opinions are like buttholes everyone has one. I can hardly wait for something of real significance to come to light and prove the point.

So how is everyone CP's??
 
  • #137
Some of my lids are frying in the sun. Other than that, not a lot of growth because of the high temps and my babies are all shutting down to conserve energy. To top it off, I lost some minors. Of all the plants to lose... I lose minors? Where did I go wrong? Less than one inch of rain since May 12th and none forecast in the near future is going to be a problem. Appears I will have more lids browning up.
 
  • #140
Is that a mistype? What does D. S. mean?
 
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