Don't worry, god's in control

[lol]

Hmm, I think I finally figured it out. I'll let you guys talk before I say anything.

 

[Trapper7]

So is dreaming about sex a sin too?It's not like you can help what you dream about.~Niki~

 

[TheAlphaWolf]

Quote[/b] ]That said, it really does pain people (or just me) to try not to have sex, lust, or masturbate.  Selevacy.  Theese are natural urges of the body, like we need air to breather, and food to eay.  Just as natural

and "god" created us that way. Sure, he could have made us reach sexual maturity later, sure, he could have made us only want sex after we're married, sure, he could have made anything, but no. he wanted us to be hypersexual animals all year round, all day round

Quote[/b] ]I have struggled to see how sex and masturbation can somehow be destructive to the human spirit, or physically,

it's not, it's good for you. (with moderation, etc)

Quote[/b] ]So is dreaming about sex a sin too?It's not like you can help what you dream about.~Niki~

well, maybe not wanting to dream about sex bad enough could prevent you from dreaming about it.


so, where in the bible does it say sex is wrong or bad in any way? (I mean as in sexual content in TV and stuff, not sex before marriage)

 

[aprilh]

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

 

[Gawd_oOo]

Well it's great that you all think I'm in control, but you keep misspelling my name.

And as others said, I think it's great how no one got personal in a very pasionate subject. - and for that reason, I'll keep my nose out of it.

 

[Outsiders71]

Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Aug. 06 2005,1:04)]

Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Aug. 06 2005,9:37)]True it is more televised but come on there is a serious problem with sexuality and sin today. Yes sex is a gift from God but look how many people abuse it. People are having sex at younger ages, before marriage where it was supposed to be used. God wants us to have sex but you are dishonoring God when you have sex before marriage. It's at marriage where two people are joined in one flesh. That's when that gift is appropriate. Look how people act, dress, think what's normal. Divorce rate is what 50%? Maybe it's just more obvious in my area than yours?

Do you think it's ok for women to wear clothes that reveal their calves and necklines? Or for men to take their shirts off at the beach? Is it ok to use things like perfume and cologne? Is it ok to use positions besides a strict (and probably clothed) missionary position?

(I'll assume you'd answer "yes" to all of those, until you tell me otherwise... not that I really need to know about the last one)

Going back to puritans because they were a good example... you would in fact be a demonstration of what they were afraid of, wouldn't you? Like you they thought the devil was slowly luring people down that slippery sexual slope, until they were not only partaking in ungodly acts, but believing that God thought it was acceptable to be partaking in those acts.

You are the "horrible future" they envisioned, or part of it anyway.

Granted they probably were considered extreme even in their time... but, denominations aside, do you think their beliefs have merit? Or do you think that they were just people who had the wrong idea and were taking things to the extreme... that now that we've gathered more knowledge about the world, we just know better than they did?

It's all about perspective.

Your questions about clothing and perfume are way out in left field. First off let me say that women can wear what they want it's their body/temple of Christ, however I may not agree with it. If you are indeed a man ), I'm sure that you have seen a woman who dresses promiscuous (Not too hard in the USA). What does this do to you? What are you thinking about when you are scoping out her flesh? This is called lust my friend, you commit adultery in your heart. Why does this happen? God even states in the bible he made everything about a woman's body beautiful to man. Can you see where this is a problem when women are exposing more and more of their bodies? Do I really need to go any further? This doesn't mean they should wear something that covers their neck to their feet, this means be reasonable. Most women who dress like I said earlier know what they are doing. If they are not purposely trying to draw attention to themselves they are blind. Another thing that I'd like to point out is that it isn't easy either for women to buy appropriate clothing because men fashion designers are making the short-short-shorts and the tiny-winy-spagheti tops. However it is their choice how they want to represent their body, and that reflects on their character and either defiles or glorifies God.

As for the puritan relation to this I have no clue. I'm not puritan nor remember much about their beliefs. My opinion on this is coming from what I observe. When will the world come to an end? Nobody knows except God. It is not predictable, and it is said that Christ will comeback at a time when least expected. I'm just stating that I believe this world is getting worse as in the sinful nature of this culture relating to sex.

 

[scottychaos]

for those of you think there is nothing wrong with sex before marriage..

do you think it is wrong for men to father many children and then do absolutely nothing to raise them?
is it ok for them to father multiple children with multiple women, then walk away and do nothing to support those children, financially or emotionally?

what causes that problem??
sex before marriage being looked at as "ok"..thats what.
If more people waited for marriage before having sex, there would be far less fatherless children in the world..
sure, you can still have divorces even with marriage..
but I bet that 90% of children who grow up with no father in their lives have mothers who have never been married..

Scot

 

[Outsiders71]

Quote[/b] (lol @ Aug. 06 2005,4:02)]Sex is an issue that you'll want to be weary of on the forums. But, the issue of sex is about the last issue around the bible that I don't have a good grasp on. Something about the morality of sex seems misconstrued, and the same of masturbation. I have found that the nature of sin usualy comes from the abuse of our human abilities and rights, or our bodies. Things that end up being somehow destructive in a physical way or spiritual way. I don't believe god makes rules for no reason, but rather to represent the nature and laws of the universe and reality that he created. If you go against the natural order, or his will, it is destructive. That said, it really does pain people (or just me) to try not to have sex, lust, or masturbate. Selevacy. Theese are natural urges of the body, like we need air to breather, and food to eay. Just as natural. While we need to look at ourselves as spiritual beings, we are still a soul, and the body a part of that soul. I have struggled to see how sex and masturbation can somehow be destructive to the human spirit, or physically, but I cannot find the answer in all theese years as I have most other things. It's rather enigmatic, and I believe there is something about it we just don't understand. I believe that theese things, like food, taken in moderation may not be bad, until it begins to take control of you, your life, and the way you act and think. A strong person in god should be able to avoid letting it get to that point. Just as we have all the power not to lie and steal, we can control where our bodies go and what we do with them. Yet there is just something that sounds "good" about being able to call myself a vergin. Perhaps with social implications, sex should be reserved for marriage alone...

Sex is talked about in the Bible. One place you can reference it is in the Song of Solomon. I'll try to find the other places its listed. Anyways as a Christian you are supposed to be trying to become more like Christ. People have this misunderstanding about Christianity and that is that it's not easy. It is not a safe place where you can hide. Yes everyone has urges to want to have sex, it's called temptation. Whether or not you decide to give in is up to you, we were given the freedom of choice. The better your relationship with Christ and God becomes the more the holy spirit will be with you. It will help you fight off temptation.

As for mastur*****, it is not specifically said by God that it is sin. But unless you can _ without committing adultery of the heart and lusting of another woman's body parts, you are sinning. Another thing you need to think about is this: When you invite Jesus inside your heart and choose him as your savior, the holy spirit lives and grows in you. Your body is a temple for this spirit. Whatever you do with your body either glorifies or defiles God. What do you think _ does? Also believe me that it is possible to live without sex or _. If you think it is not your relationship with God is weak and you lack the self-control to resist the temptation.

 

[Outsiders71]

Quote[/b] (Trapper7 @ Aug. 06 2005,3:57)]Sex before marriage is bad?Oh boy am I in trouble! I must be going to hell

~Niki~

You see that's what's so great about our savior Christ. He sacrificed himself on the cross and died for our sins. He was a man who NEVER sinned. What does this mean for you and for others? Develop a relationship with Christ, learn about him. If you are not familiar with Christ and who he was the best place to begin is in the bible. Read John in the new testament, it comes after Luke. I challenge you to read John, and learn about him.

Once you are ready to accept Christ as your savior, you can ask him to forgive all your sins. He is the only one who can cleanse you of your sin. Through Christ you will have eternal life.

 

[Outsiders71]

Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Aug. 06 2005,6:19)]

Quote[/b] ]That said, it really does pain people (or just me) to try not to have sex, lust, or masturbate. Selevacy. Theese are natural urges of the body, like we need air to breather, and food to eay. Just as natural

and "god" created us that way. Sure, he could have made us reach sexual maturity later, sure, he could have made us only want sex after we're married, sure, he could have made anything, but no. he wanted us to be hypersexual animals all year round, all day round

Quote[/b] ]I have struggled to see how sex and masturbation can somehow be destructive to the human spirit, or physically,

it's not, it's good for you. (with moderation, etc)

Quote[/b] ]So is dreaming about sex a sin too?It's not like you can help what you dream about.~Niki~

well, maybe not wanting to dream about sex bad enough could prevent you from dreaming about it.


so, where in the bible does it say sex is wrong or bad in any way? (I mean as in sexual content in TV and stuff, not sex before marriage)

Here's a good link about why masturbation is not good:
http://www.newjerusalem.com/bepure.htm

As for having dreams about sex, it's another form of temptation. You think you don't have control but you do in a way. Think about it this way if you truely believed in your heart that it was wrong and against God's will to do, could you see yourself doing that? So what does this mean? Nothing your human and your body is struggling with the temptation of having sex. What do you do to stop that? Grow your relationship with Christ. Learn more about him, apply more aspects of him in your life. When you look in the mirror you want to be able to see him, that is the ultimate goal. This relationship with Christ is a lifelong journey, not something that happens overnight. He will change your heart and grow the holy spirit inside you so you may protect yourself from temptation. If you are serious about this and want to learn more I suggest you find a nondenominal church or a christian church in your area. Try to see if they have a special mass for teenagers/young adults, some church's do. These services are more directed with the issues our age group faces in life. Even if it's one time, go check it out and listen with your heart, what bad could it do to you? For me it has changed my life and I have never regretted it. Jesus is so amazing!

 

[ALLOSAURZ]

Actually not to get off topic but regardless of whether or not masturbation is sinful it still has it's benefits aside from pleasure such as reducing the risks of prostate cancer http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3072021.stm

 

[Est]

Quote[/b] ] Another thing that I'd like to point out is that it isn't easy either for women to buy appropriate clothing because men fashion designers are making the short-short-shorts and the tiny-winy-spagheti tops.

So, what I'm really getting out of this is that we need more Russian and Siberian fashion designers. (don't let the crack make you miss the underlying point of this statement)

Quote[/b] ]What are you thinking about when you are scoping out her flesh?

What's... For dinner?? (No pun/slur intended!) The point being: you can look at someone's body without commiting a sin, or "scoping their flesh". You say the body is a temple, I say enjoy it. Should we destroy all of the medeival cathedrals of Europe because they are beautifu or because they inspire thoughts of granduer? Or maybe because the motivation for their construction was based in vanity and not solely for the Lord? Or how about the history behind their creation, taxation of the poor and so forth? Just because you enjoy some of the beauty that the lord has graced this Earth with, doesn't make you some kind of Satan-loving sin machine. See, here's the thing: I'm not saying that it's nice to oggle at some one because they are wearing revealing clothing, or that you should have sexual thoughts every time you see a part of the leg above the ankle, but you can enjoy beauty without being lustful. See, that's the problem with today's generations: there's no concept of difference between erotic and romantic.

Quote[/b] ]God even states in the bible he made everything about a woman's body beautiful to man.

And I thank him for it! You can feel free to look at my above responses if you feel this was merely a cheap opporatunity to crack a joke.

Quote[/b] ] Think about it this way if you truely believed in your heart that it was wrong and against God's will to do, could you see yourself doing that? So what does this mean?

Ever had a nightmare? A terrible dream? (Make the connection?) I don't think I really need to say more than that.

See, my spiel is that it's all a little bit on the extreme side. When I look at life the way you've been describing, it seems so fascist, like God is plotting to get as many of us to hell so heaven can be kept a premium resort. Why resist the beauty with which the Lord has blessed this world? I'm not saying that someone should have carnal relations with every person they meet, do not miscontrue.
For instance, is it not possible to love without being married? What if I loved a girl with all my heart, and she loved me back just the same, but due to circumstances we could not get married, say, like for family reasons. Does that make our love illicit? If we made love would the Lord shun me? Somehow it just don't add up for me.
If I lived my life a hermit, worshipping God every Sunday like many other folks, where would I go? Is a life where I did not spread my piety, love, and help one that the Lord would accept over one of love and joy but I would masterbate, or make love with a woman I loved but to whom I was not betrothed (not while married to someone else, of course)?
See, the Lord made us creatures capable to love, creatures who could see the beauty in one another and in the world we have been given, should I deny all that the Lord has given me under the pretense that my life would be of more worth under His eyes? Is an empty life devoid of caring for anything that He has given us but including worship better than one of love for Him and all he has given to us but also involving sex out of marriage? Is it better to ignore everything we have so that we can make sure to be on good terms when we die?? I think God is a little less cynical (though I hope not without a good sense of humor!)
If our time on Earth was just to show whether we should end up in heaven or in hell, well, then there's no point to being here at all. Would it then not be better for us all to be baptized and then killed? This life has to be about more than just "which direction will my escalator lead." You use passages from the bible to justify your thoughts, my justification is well... LOOK AROUND YOU! We live in a beautiful world! The Lord made us capable of many things, good and bad: lead a life of appreciation, love, care, and helpfullness and I don't know how far from the path you can stray.

Quote[/b] ]Jesus is so amazing!

He is! So get your nose out of that book and appreciate the world around you! There is the message of God in everything around us!

 

[JBL]

Quote[/b] (ALLOSAURZ @ Aug. 06 2005,11:01)]Actually not to get off topic but regardless of whether or not masturbation is sinful it still has it's benefits aside from pleasure such as reducing the risks of prostate cancer http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3072021.stm

Why not Allosaurz?  Not so far off topic.  If we can morph this into a discussion of physics and billions and billions of stars surrounding the earth in the firmament of the cosmos, why not turn literally into ourselves--that is, at least us guys--and ponder the billions and billions of swimmers surrounding the firmness of our prostate.  

Now, combine this factoid with lycopene (found in tomatoes) also being good for the prostate, and we can get to spaghetti sauce and back to the flying spaghetti monster (another topic for those who remember); the flying spaghetti monster created the cosmos; it is the flying spaghetti monster who really is in control.  See?  We're back on topic!  

 

[Rubra]

Well, whaddya know. I come back from vacation and we've got another big discussion going. And I thought these kinds of topic were banned. I do not plan to get all involved in defending in writing the way of Life against skeptics who don't even plan to accept anything they read hear (I hope I'm not offending anyone, I only speak from experience.) I will, however, say a few things.

I believe that every desire and pleasure we have was given us by God. Hunger, sex, humor, etc. The problem comes when we let these desires control us. The more you dream about any of the above, the more you will be drawn to them. We quickly reach a point where we do anything we do to fulfill these desires.

The scriptures God gave us are for our own benifit; he wants us to enjoy what he has given us, but he puts down limits because he knows us better than we do ourselves.

Now there is one desire that we all have, one that all the possessions in the world will not fulfill. There is no human we can trust completely, no human we can love completely, no human who can know us completely. That is why even people with lots of friend and money are never truly happy, never fulfilled, never content. We can lie ourselves out of it but that just dries us up. We can have all the sex we want and not be happy. God made us so that we could know him, and he could know us and love us. I was esctatic when I first come know my maker, and the more I walk with him, the happier I become. You hear many Christians talk about how great our faith is; we don't make it up. You don't have to believe me, and I pity you if you don't.

Anyway, I am not going to spend hours discussing this, but you are welcome to contact me privately and I'd be happy to talk.

Peter

 

[Trapper7]

Oh give me a break! There is nothing wrong with having sex before marriage,and I'm sure that most of us on this forum have done just that.There is a thing called protection(condoms,birth control pills and so on)that will also reduce kids not having fathers.And like I said before I do not believe in god so don't challenge me to read John or whoever cause it won't make a difference.ALso good point ALLOSAURZ

~Niki~

 

[lol]

I'd just like to know why the more I pull away from such desires, the more women throw themsleves at me. Well, maybe I do know why

. It's just a matter of not abusing the rights you have, not letting theese things control you, and most importantly learning to love. I know many people who have sex with many women without attachment. I think it kinda sullies the heart. Learning to love unconditionally is one of the most important lessons in our spiritual evolution, and having sex with whomever we want controdicts that. I believe the devil himself has kept me from being able to completely grasp that lesson, as in my spiritual growth through what might be thousands of years, learning the power of love is the last major wall in my path. Strange how in my life it seemed as if all the things I cherished and loved had been taken away from me, like a forbidden fruit. The last thing standing in the way of my completion...

 

[endparenthesis]

Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Aug. 06 2005,9:40)]Your questions about clothing and perfume are way out in left field.  First off let me say that women can wear what they want it's their body/temple of Christ, however I may not agree with it.  If you are indeed a man ), I'm sure that you have seen a woman who dresses promiscuous (Not too hard in the USA).  What does this do to you?  What are you thinking about when you are scoping out her flesh?  This is called lust my friend, you commit adultery in your heart.  Why does this happen?  God even states in the bible he made everything about a woman's body beautiful to man.  Can you see where this is a problem when women are exposing more and more of their bodies?  Do I really need to go any further?  This doesn't mean they should wear something that covers their neck to their feet, this means be reasonable.  Most women who dress like I said earlier know what they are doing.  If they are not purposely trying to draw attention to themselves they are blind.  Another thing that I'd like to point out is that it isn't easy either for women to buy appropriate clothing because men fashion designers are making the short-short-shorts and the tiny-winy-spagheti tops.  However it is their choice how they want to represent their body, and that reflects on their character and either defiles or glorifies God.

My point was that there have been christians in the past who would see things that don't bother you (conservative dresses and bathing suits and such) as just as bad as the short-short-shorts you're talking about. Bare ankles conjure sinful thoughts... perfume is used to lure and intoxicate... yada yada.

I'm asking why you know better than they (people like the puritans) did where god wants this line drawn?

How do you know you aren't the product of Satan's efforts over the centuries to broaden what people think God finds acceptable? To slowly make even devout christians overly liberal and sexually permissive would be a great plan, wouldn't it?

 

[endparenthesis]

Quote[/b] (Rubra @ Aug. 06 2005,11:37)]Well, whaddya know.  I come back from vacation and we've got another big discussion going.  And I thought these kinds of topic were banned.  I do not plan to get all involved in defending in writing the way of Life against skeptics who don't even plan to accept anything they read hear (I hope I'm not offending anyone, I only speak from experience.)  I will, however, say a few things.

The funny thing is... the biggest complaint the skeptics usually have is that they feel that the believers have already planned not to accept anything they read here.

That's not an accusation or anything... I'm just amused by the dichotomy.

 

[herenorthere]

five words on a bumper sticker = 16 pages (and counting) of discussion

Obviously, the way to prevent sex before marriage is to marry 'em off at a young age.  Perhaps 10.  Maybe someone has already mentioned this (I've lost the will to keep up with long discussions) but people hit puberty (puberty hits people?) at an earlier and earlier age.  Part is due to nutrition and maybe part is due to the chemicals we bathe our planet in.  But what do you expect in a society where people are still marrying at 18+ but are now maturing sexually several years earlier.

But I don't give a rat's a** about what God's position might be on sex before marriage, if God doesn't express a clear position about all the wars and killing done in God's name.

 

[Outsiders71]

All this talk about my views being puritan, facist, or even satanic is amusing. I don't call you Pagan when you are sinning. You can choose to believe whatever you want, it's your free will. However you have now been told the truth on where God stands for masturbation and sex before marriage. If you choose to ignore God's will and continue to justify them in your eyes, that's on you. Just remember come judgement God is more forgiving to the people who don't know then then people who do know and act against his will.