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Thread: Homo sapiens zoo exhibit

  1. #41

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    you were right an anthropology major is going to correct it, altough you did a pretty good job, just some very controverital and some have little evidence to show they were our ancestors. Frist there is alot of controversy with ardipithecus ramidus as to if it falls in our ancestors or is an offshoot. the same with A. anamensis, though A. anamensis is better accepted. THe only other major problem is that the robust forms of Australophithecus(A. boisei and A. robustus) are pretty well accepted as an offshoot of the human linage based on skull shape and size. Also the lived concurtently with H. habilis and have very differnt body types (look at their jaw size and the sagital crest they have. H. heidelbergensis and H. ergaster are usally classed as Homo erectus and people fight about weather they are just two groups of variation or if they are their own speices. Also almost all of these speices at one time or another lived concurently with a speices that was there before it. THere is alot of overlap in their time lines, so the old speices does not necessarily die out as soon as a new one comes along.


    Also you forgot archaic homo sapiens, which differ from modern Homo sapiens in some anatomical freature (im not going to list them all here but if intrested let me know). Neaderthals are controvertal as to weather or not they are very specialized archaic Homo sapiens (I think they are) or if they are their own speices, so we are going to leave that one alone.

    As for diverging from other apes the last human ancestor we shared with another ape was about ~5.5 million years ago. The living ape that also had the same ancestor was the chimpanzee.

    And for the reason that apes are still around even the older ones, they are here because they explioted a differnt enviromental niche in nature. A new speices can evolve as an offshoot of an old one and the orginal speices can survive if they exploit differnt niches in nature or if there is selective presure that gives neither an advantage. Evolution does not care how old a speices is, only if it is addapted to its enviroment. Thats why some reptile speices have change very little in millions of years.
    "We're terrible animals. I think that the Earth's immune system is trying to get rid of us, as well it should." - Kurt Vonnegut

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Outsiders71 @ Aug. 31 2005,11:08)]If we evolved from Apes then where is the specie link between ape and human? Also usually during evolution doesn't the older specie die out, and the new evolved specie survive (since it was naturally selected for evolution). So why are there still Apes here today?

    My belief is the one that is written in the book of truth. We were created by God. God created the other animals/beasts/life and set humans above them all. Whether or not evolution does exist, it's just another creation of God. As for the spiritual/soul discussion: It says in the bible that our bodies are temples that house our soul. If you do not believe you have a soul, then chances are you do not believe in God/Christ, and the devil is winning you [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/confused.gif[/img].
    The Bible is made up of 67 individual books......why dont you ask for individual versions of each one and read them individually? Youll realise then that the facts in the Bible arnt all that seems
    Thats why I dont agree witht he Bible being 'one book', because its not, and many facts from the original books have been left out
    If you read some of them individually youll realise this

    And as for it being the book of truth.....well, thats your opinion
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  3. #43
    nrbelex's Avatar
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    Here's a great article on the debate currently going on here. Long read but fun.

    ~ Brett

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Sep. 01 2005,12:12)]you were right an anthropology major is going to correct it
    Thank you... that's the info I was looking for.

    I forgot to add that another thing people forget is that there's really a gradient between species on a branch as far as their differences... the only thing that's abrupt is our labels for them. It's a bit like looking at the visible spectrum of light. One color gets labeled "blue" and another color gets labeled "green". But where does the transition really happen? You could identify hundreds of different shades of "blue-green" in between. We include groups of colors/organisms under the same label to keep things somewhat manageable in our heads. Some differences aren't as significant as others.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]If we evolved from Apes then where is the specie link between ape and human?
    what endparenthesis said. Scientists also debate which ones are apes, and which are human. How much more "missing link" can you get? PS. "specie" is some coin term. Species as in biology is both singular and plural.
    Oh, and one more thing... all the fossils are in chronological order.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]then chances are you do not believe in God/Christ, and the devil is winning you
    I guess I'll go to ETERNAL suffering just because I believe in something there is no evidence for. Oh well. I guess that's "just" and "merciful".... but that's another debate.
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (TheAlphaWolf @ Sep. 01 2005,7:38)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]If we evolved from Apes then where is the specie link between ape and human?
    what endparenthesis said. Scientists also debate which ones are apes, and which are human. How much more "missing link" can you get? PS. "specie" is some coin term. Species as in biology is both singular and plural.
    Oh, and one more thing... all the fossils are in chronological order.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]then chances are you do not believe in God/Christ, and the devil is winning you
    I guess I'll go to ETERNAL suffering just because I believe in something there is no evidence for. Oh well. I guess that's "just" and "merciful".... but that's another debate.
    Code Sample

    How much more "missing link" can you get?
    [/QUOTE]

    That's where the theory of evolution has its flaws. Sure in the last 150 years lots of people have challenged Darwins theory and could not prove falsification. But you know what, can you prove to me that we evolved from Apes? No. Fossils... ok you have some clues, but it is not concrete. You can only hypothesize with these fossils. You can not say you were there to witness the first specie to what we are now, humans. Speaking of which in order to have evolution don't you need a specie to start from? Where does this specie come from? You're trying to tell me we evolved from a single celled organism that was in the ocean billions of years ago?

    Could it be that some Intelligent Design (ex: God) created the first specie link that later became the specie we are today? Could it be that some kind of Intelligent Design (ex: God) created evolution, to change us to what we are today? I'm not so sure about evolution to be honest, but if it did exist it would to me just be another magnificant thing God created. You scientists keep trying to ride on Darwins coat tails and claim that it's all natural. Hey man it just happened, nature did it! You would think with all the intelligence and knowledge of these scientists that they would be even more compelled in the complexity of this world, that it would just seem way to complex, way to random, way to out of this world for it to just happen. That maybe there is a higher being out there.

    You want to talk science and theories, explain the big bang. Scientists claim that it happened 20-40 billion years ago or w/e. This is what led to the creation of the planets and the sun and all the other galaxies. Ok what created this big bang. There was NOTHING then all the sudden BANG and here comes all this Hydrogen to create the Sun? Come on. I appreciate what science is doing, how far we've come and all but they need to layoff on stuff they cannot explain. A theory that can't be proven or disproven true should not be even in the question of being taught in schools. It's just not science!
    James 1:17

    "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]But you know what, can you prove to me that we evolved from Apes? No. Fossils... ok you have some clues, but it is not concrete
    fossils are very strong evidence, homologies, all the things we have in common (anatomically and behaviorally), things like the coccyx, we originate from the same place, things like the fact that almost every animal out there can synthesize their own vitamin C, but apes (humans, chimps, gorillas) ALL have the EXACT SAME mutation (in exactly the same place, etc) that doesn't let them/us synthesize vitamin c. That is VERY strong evidence for common descent.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] Speaking of which in order to have evolution don't you need a specie to start from? Where does this specie come from? You're trying to tell me we evolved from a single celled organism that was in the ocean billions of years ago?
    SPECIES.
    that doesn't involve evolution, but basically yes. It didn't have to be in the ocean, etc. but all life has common ancestors which have common ancestors, etc. until you go back far enough and there's only one celled organisms in the earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Could it be that some Intelligent Design (ex: God) created the first specie link that later became the specie we are today?
    Sure, God could have created a bacterium and then let it evolve. That doesn't threaten evolution or anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] I'm not so sure about evolution to be honest, but if it did exist it would to me just be another magnificant thing God created.
    *shrugs* as long as you accept evolution lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You scientists keep trying to ride on Darwins coat tails and claim that it's all natural.
    of course. otherwise if it's not natural you could not study it in order to find evidenfe for-against it. Go into the supernatural and you can't say ANYTHING about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You would think with all the intelligence and knowledge of these scientists that they would be even more compelled in the complexity of this world, that it would just seem way to complex, way to random, way to out of this world for it to just happen. That maybe there is a higher being out there.
    maybe there is, but that's irrelevant (to science) since you can't find evidence either way. Science works by finding evidence about how/when/why/what/etc. natural things. And that's what it's finding out. Whether there is a superior being or not is irrelevant to whether gravity exists, evolution occurs, etc.
    And no, the universe isn't random. That's the whole point. Things happen because of other things, things happen for a reason, etc. Natural things are not random. Sure, we can't predict exactly where a hurricane will go, but that's only because we don't have all the information there is to know that could affect how it "behaves". It doesn't mean it's random.
    and scientists (or should I say the "institution" of science...) IS "smart", etc. That's exactly why supernatural things are out of the question, and why scientists can see how the complexity might have come about. Regular people might see a snowflake and be baffled how it came about, why, etc, and then attribute it to some omnipotent being that loves us and "created" snowflakes so we would be all happy and we would see evidence of his existance, etc... but a scientist is smart enough to study the snowflake, do research, etc. and find out... well, everything about it. That H20 atoms naturally form hexagonal structures as they cool down because the ... blah blah blah.
    Science is also smart because it's not narrowminded. You might say the world is "just right" for us, but of course if we evolved here then it's right for us because WE changed because to fit IT. It sees other explanations, it's not bound to religious teachings and ideas. The big bang... maybe it's one of millions, maybe universes are being created every day, etc. (although I think that's more of philosophy... since you can't prove it... but my point is that one must be open minded and that's why you need science, because we aren't gods and we can't think of all possibilities. Science just says ok, here's what's there and so from what we know this is true)
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Ok what created this big bang. There was NOTHING then all the sudden BANG and here comes all this Hydrogen to create the Sun? Come on.
    that's a hypothesis... but like endparenthesis said, "It isn't reality's job to satisfy our egos". The evidence (and there is a lot) points that all the galaxies are moving away from each other and if you go back in time far enough, they would all be in one place. A little common sense and knowledge of physics and stuff (which I've heard but don't really get... lol) would tell you that an explosion happened (because the forces were negative and gravity and energy and...beats me...) in order for all the galaxies to be moving at this speed and be this far away. What happened before? I don't know, and unless there is physical evidence, we'll never know.
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ] A theory that can't be proven or disproven true should not be even in the question of being taught in schools. It's just not science!
    it can be proven or disproven. a very simple example (and there are many many more ways to falsify evolution): find a monkey with reptile scales, that lays eggs like amphibians, and with bird wings, and evolution is out the drain.
    and how it has been proven, not only have bacteria evolved resistance to antibiotics, etc... but speciation has been observed. There are quite a lot of instances where one population of a certain species has been observed to become another species. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
    And you can't say we aren't sure how to define species because the examples there are of times when the new population can't mate and have fertile offspring with the old population. Ask ANY biologist and they'll tell you that when that happens, the two different populations are different species.


    whew... I need a drink. and some food... maybe a shower... lol... by the time you're done reading this you'll probably need them too... sorry :P (just remember I typed this)
    Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish-Euripides
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]But you know what, can you prove to me that we evolved from Apes? No. Fossils... ok you have some clues, but it is not concrete. You can only hypothesize with these fossils.
    Exactly. Everything in life is odds. If you study the bizarreness of quantum physics where reality itself seems to exist in these fluxes of probability, you become even surer of it. There's no way of proving it outright, but with mountains of evidence (not just "some clues") that support it, and every new discovery just happening to naturally fall right in line with it (certainly not the case with most religions when it comes to new discoveries), I'd say we're in 80% chance of accuracy territory at this point. Maybe more. That's enough for me at the moment.

    In your position I really don't think you want to start playing the "not enough proof" game.

    You also can't prove to me that we aren't all 10 minutes old with lifetimes of memories implanted into our heads and a meticulously fabricated old-looking world for us to play in... but since it seems so unproductive and counter-intuitive to create such a thing, we can both come to the consensus that it probably (probabilities) isn't true. Even though neither of us can be certain... we're both pretty comfortable with where we stand on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Speaking of which in order to have evolution don't you need a specie to start from? Where does this specie come from?
    That would be the theory of abiogenesis, not evolution, which I don't know as much about, but I don't think it has nearly as much research behind it as evolution does. Evolution's validity isn't hinged on it however it originally happened. But it certainly didn't start with a cell. It took tens or hundreds of millions of years just to go from organic compounds to cells. That's a freaking long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You're trying to tell me we evolved from a single celled organism that was in the ocean billions of years ago?
    Yes. If you're trying to appeal to "common sense", it's also common sense that the earth is flat.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]Could it be that some Intelligent Design (ex: God) created the first specie link that later became the specie we are today? Could it be that some kind of Intelligent Design (ex: God) created evolution, to change us to what we are today?
    So now you're asking if it's possible that we do have apes for ancestors? Um... yes, possibly.

    If God did this, why does Genesis say it happened completely differently? In the "Book of Truth" of all places.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]You would think with all the intelligence and knowledge of these scientists that they would be even more compelled in the complexity of this world, that it would just seem way to complex, way to random, way to out of this world for it to just happen. That maybe there is a higher being out there.
    I think I've figured out the big difference between the two "sides" of discussions like this.

    Some people just can't seem to wrap their minds around the concept of purposelessness... the idea that productive things can happen without being planned. Once again, "common sense" is getting in the way. There are demonstrations of this "unintelligent intelligence" everywhere, and most of us barely seem to notice.

    This concept is often referred to as "emergent behavior". I'm going to try not to get into it too much, because no one cares and it won't impress you anyway (you can always read about it if you want to). The gist is that very simple microbehaviors can escalate (often just creating positive feedback loops) into seemingly intelligent macrobehaviors in large enough communities. The individuals are absolutely oblivious to the process... they're just following their own simple rules. Ant colonies do very intelligent things, yet ants themselves are extremely stupid. But the rules that they follow when interacting with each other (and keep in mind they can only perceive their immediate surroundings, if it can even be called perception... the global state is totally above them) faciliate those macrobehaviors, when there are enough of them interacting. Bigger colonies are actually much more effective than small ones. The ants are almost like bits in a computer... the more you have the more you can do with them.

    We watch an ant colony and "common sense" would tell us that they're driven by something. Somewhere there's purpose. Somewhere there's intelligence. How could there not be? But as a feedback loop it does just fine without it.

    And I don't call it unintelligent to demean it. It's incredible. It's awe-inspiring.

    Similarly, complex results can emerge from simple rules of survival (this mutation contributes to survival, this one doesn't). Especially when feedback loops enter the mix (arms races between organisms competing for survival).

    Scientists aren't ignoring complexity... they're seeing more complexity. The complexity they're seeing includes not just the complexity of the world, but the complexity of complexity emerging from simplicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]There was NOTHING then all the sudden BANG and here comes all this Hydrogen to create the Sun? Come on. I appreciate what science is doing, how far we've come and all but they need to layoff on stuff they cannot explain. A theory that can't be proven or disproven true should not be even in the question of being taught in schools.
    To be honest, if you'd paid more attention to these concepts in school, you wouldn't have these cartoonish, simplistic versions of them in your head. Only creationists teach that before the big bang there was "nothing". I don't want to get on your case here... I just wish more people who were trying to evict things like this from schools actually knew what they were evicting in the first place.

    Well, there's another long-winded post out of me. I'm always curious if more than 5 people actually read these things. [img]http://www.**********.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/new/smile.gif[/img]

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