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T5 Bulb Brands?

  • #23
I have found everything I want. Would 4 T5 HO 54W bulds with a CIR of 85 and a rating of 6500k and producing 5000 lumens be sufficient for h/l neps and helis? Or do I need to aim for the 6 bulbs? What distance would you advise the plants be from the lights?

Depends on what you want.... personally i use the 6 bulb and the 4 bulb has been put away for a spare.

Butttttttttttt as Ron mentions, they do produce copious amounts of heat

My helis are within 6 inches of the bulbs... but this doesnt happen without ventilation and humidification.
Av
 
  • #24
-Hey Tamer those were the systems I was looking at. Describe your setup ie - how many bulbs, distance you keep your plants from them, temperatures they create, etc. etc.....

I have a 29 gallon tank. It is kept 1 foot above the plants. I have 2x 3000k and 2x 6500k 2' bulbs. They haven't increased the temps of the terrarium even slightly even with it resting right on top of the glass. Though there is a gap 1 inch in the back and 1 inch in the front to allow air to move in and out of the terrarium. The conditions are ideal for my lowland Nepenthes. Temps are 72-82 degrees and humidity is 75-82% average. These don't change even at night when the lights are off for 10 hours.
 
  • #25
Um, I don't mean to be a jerk but I've had a really hard time finding information about bulbs and out of all the threads I've started across five forums this is the first one to start yielding useful information. Please try to keep this about bulbs, quality of bulbs, and places to buy bulbs.
There are already several threads discussing T5 light fixtures in the recent months, several of which I started. There are literally hundreds of threads discussing people's terrarium setups and conditions. Or you can start your own thread.
Thanks,
~Joe
 
  • #26
I dont know how accurate these numbers are, but here are some 54w T5 VHO PAR values that were listed on a planted aquarium website back in 2006

ATI

Sun Pro 357
Aquablue 336
Blue Plus 311
Actinic 137

D&D/Giesemann

Midday 325
Aquablue 324
Actinic Plus 264
Pure Actinic 157

UVL

Aqua sun 345
Actinic White 293
Super Actinic 210

AquaZ

Sun Pro 285
Ocean Pro 323
Blue Pro 266

Helios

Daylight 309
Super Blue 225

Current Sun Paq

Daylight 10K 272
Blue 252

GE Daylight 340


But there is more to it then PAR or even PUR...

Ive got some of the Giesemann 6000k Midday on order. Im wanting to try these for a several reasons. One, if you look at their spectral performance they emit wavelengths over 700nm and have a very broad spectrum with a high CRI (5 phosphor IIRC)
Second, I found them at a great price from a reef supply that is going out of business
(diyreef.com)

t5lampgsmd1.jpg



As you can see, there is even a wide variance in PAR (and PUR) values even among bulbs designed for plant/reef use... and the GE starcoat Daylight is a very strong bang for the buck and has a proven track record.
http://bluegrasscarnivores.com/t5/28345_starcoat_t5_linear.pdf

GE 6500k Daylight (IIRC)
6500K_daylight.jpg


GE 3000k (IIRC)
3000K_daylight.jpg


I would not buy a bulb based on any one value alone... but I will use a single value to eliminate a choice. There are many variables at play when it comes to plant lights. You have photosynthesis, accessory pigments, wavelengths that inhibit phytopathogen growth, wavelengths that inhibit plant growth, etc etc etc..

I have piles of "good" bulbs that I have bought and tried only to swap out in a month or two

While most bulbs will grow plants, all bulbs are definitely not created equal

Av
 
  • #27
Ron, I havent looked at any of the most recent models.... but up till about 6 months ago white leds were for the most part almost "red-less" (not desirable LOL)

we would be talking "top shelf" with proper optics... so we are a ways off yet
Av,
Have you checked out this thread? Some people are playing with Cree LEDs. The Fenix flashlight that elgecko has is powered by a single Cree Q5 LED and is impressive from both a lumen output & color perspective. It didn't have the 'difficult-to-see' perspective that I have with other run-of-the-mill LEDs when I played around with it. I read somewhere that Cree has a newer LED with 30% higher output than the Q5 - but I haven't seen any appear in new products.
 
  • #28
Av,
Have you checked out this thread? Some people are playing with Cree LEDs. The Fenix flashlight that elgecko has is powered by a single Cree Q5 LED and is impressive from both a lumen output & color perspective. It didn't have the 'difficult-to-see' perspective that I have with other run-of-the-mill LEDs when I played around with it. I read somewhere that Cree has a newer LED with 30% higher output than the Q5 - but I haven't seen any appear in new products.


Ron, the cree is very impressive indeed... but they are not there just yet.

Here is their spectra (cree's documentation)
cree.gif


Here are some fluorescent bulbs for comparison:
fluor.gif


Here are some of the spectral curves for for photosynthesis and aux pigments:
photo.gif


Here is the bulb Im using (just for ref, notice the performance above 600nm):
giesemann_midday.jpg


As you will notice, while good elsewhere the red performance of the Cree still drops off proportionally above 600nm (and below 450nm btw)
Of course you could take the white Cree and supplement the red (and blue)...but then you are back to the blending and optics issues

Interestingly, to get the white LED they take a typical Blue LED and add a yellow fluorescent "phosphor" If I understand the technology correctly, sort of a hybrid between the two formats. Once perfected, they will have the best of both worlds.

They will be the light of choice, just not yet IMHO. They still have to overcome the red performance and the cost issue.

Close, but no cigar just yet... but cost is increasingly becoming more of the limiting factor then the technology.

I wouldn't be buying stock in any manufacturer of "traditional" lighting technologies ;)

T5 still has a good 5 year run as king

Of course these are just my personal opinions, I am no expert on lighting...

Av
 
  • #29
Here is an interesting quad color module from Cree:
cree4color.gif


Now if they combine this 6000k module with the 5000k white module (and bumps up the upper and lower perf) then we have something that gets mighty close to nirvana

one day in the not too distant future...
Av
 
  • #30
Is it true that you need a range of "k" to grow well cuz i got 2 daylight cfl's over 1000 lumens each running at 6500K. i heard that light leaning toward the red spectrum helps with flowering or something.
DSC05062.jpg

DSC05060.jpg

Its been running for about 6 months and it seems to do fine but Prolly could be better

---------- Post added at 10:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

you posted before i could
but can you put that in english?

---------- Post added at 10:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:16 AM ----------

what should i improve?
 
  • #31
K is a unit of measurement - Kelvins - not a measurement itself. Kelvins represent temperature. When a bulb is labeled as 6500K, it means that the bulb emits the same color light as a black body heated to a temperature of 6500 kelvins.
~Joe
 
  • #32
DaJ,

The question you ask is not something that can't really be answered in a sentence or two... there are many variables, the amount of light, the light spectra, the efficiency of the fixture, the photo-period, etc etc etc

While CFL such as yours are a good choice for small set ups, they are inherently inefficient. If you look at the bulb you will notice that the bulb has a lot of "re-strike". This re-strike is the portion of the bulb that is not pointed at or reflected to the plant, but back to the bulb itself.

They can never be as efficient as a linear bulb, but for small set ups this is a perfectly acceptable inefficiency.

This web page is older (prior to T5 and LED) but is probably the single best page on plant lighting. But even it is only focused on plant growth.... there is much more to it then just the photosynthesis curves. I have bulbs that grow plants great, but lack color and disease resistance etc etc

Dont get too lost in the red/blue fog....there is more to it then just that IMHO

http://www.aquabotanic.com/lightcompare.htm

HTH's
Av
 
  • #33
so yer saying that tubes will always be more light efficient because the light leaves the lamp better?
sorry for the noob Question but describe lumens vs, Kelvin. lumens is the ammount of light given and kelvin is a quality of the light then correct? then you think I'm running a safe bet? they get about 14 hours right now and i understand what you mean about the crazy ammount of variables but am I missing anything is what im asking i guess
 
  • #34
so yer saying that tubes will always be more light efficient because the light leaves the lamp better?
If all other parameters are equal.... then yes.

...sorry for the noob Question but describe lumens vs, Kelvin. lumens is the amount of light given and kelvin is a quality of the light then correct?

Lumen is probably the single most abused term in describing plant lighting.

Lumen is a measurement of the amount of energy that is emitted by a source, but is limited to the energy that is visible to the human eye. So I can have a very high lumen source that doesn't grow squat, or I can have a low lumen source that grows plants well.

Seedjar is spot on about Kelvin, it is a reference to the temperature (in kelvin) that a black body would have to be heated to in order to produce the same color of light.

Typically the higher the number, the more bluish the light source will appear. The lower, the more red.

IIRC, During the normal daylight cycle, this varies form somewhere around 3000k to 6500k, with noon being about 5000k

The most commonly used kelvin range for plant growth is 4100k to 6500K

CRI is color rendering index, this is a measurement of how accurate the colors will appear. A rating of 100 is the highest possible. Typically the higher the number the more "broadband" the light source is.

...i understand what you mean about the crazy amount of variables but am I missing anything is what I'm asking i guess

This is subjective.... are your plants healthy?... are they producing good color/dew/etc?...are you happy with their growth and appearance?
Can you have better, well of course... there is always room for improvement. But a lot depends on what is the limiting factor. The amount of light you can use depends on other variables... nutrient levels, CO2 levels, species etc etc etc.

Be aware that there are not black/white answers to this stuff.... If you are not happy with your results, try another bulb. Give a 5000k or 4100k a try. You can also move bulbs closer if possible, energy levels vary based upon the inverse square law.

One of the most overlooked but important variables is reflector design. Even with linear bulbs over half the bulb is pointed in the wrong direction. I'd rather have a T12 with a good reflector as a T5 with no reflector.

and not all bulbs are created equal, while most will grow plants.... there can be a signicant difference between two bulbs having the same Kelvin temp.

FWIW, the GE's are suppose the be some of the best of the CFL

HTH's
Av
 
  • #35
sorry for the noob Question but describe lumens vs, Kelvin. lumens is the ammount of light given and kelvin is a quality of the light then correct?

That's close. Lumens measure the amount of certain colors being emitted by the lamp. But like Av said, it's just colors that the human eye sees. (A reptile heat lamp doesn't look very bright, and has a low lumen value, but they can emit enough infrared light to burn you and enough ultraviolet to give you skin cancer.) Lumens measure the intensity of energy put out by the lamp, but only a certain part of the energy.
Color temperature (Kelvins) measure the average color of the light. The color of the light is related to the energy it contains, but not directly; it doesn't indicate the actual quantity of light. A light with a low color temperature has less energy than the same amount of light with a high temperature, but the colors themselves can't be used to determine how much light there is.
As an example, think about standing on a road and watching the traffic that passes by. If you count the number of cars you see, you can get some sense of how much traffic flows on that road; this is like lumens. If you make a tally of the kinds of cars you see (commuter cars, public transit, work vehicles, freight trucks) you can tell what types of traffic the road is used for; this is like color temperature. Just knowing the percentage of traffic on the road that is trucks won't tell you anything about how many people use the road, and the number of cars on the road won't tell you what kinds of cars you should expect to see there.
~Joe
 
  • #36
To muddy the waters even more, sometimes you want light for what it prevents from growing

430-490nm wavelengths actually prevent the sporation of Botrytis while inducing the sporation of beneficial Trichoderma

and this is only one example... :)

This is why sunlight "kills" botrytis, and may be an issue for the indoor grower

So if you have repeated issues with phytopathogens, lighting may be one of the variables you need to look at ;)
Av
 
  • #37
Hey thanks you guys. well met. with a few extra bucks ill experiment with some other bulbs n stuff just to research a little for myself. yea one thing i would like right now are dewier dros. i'll deffinatley experiment. thanks for the help :bigthumpup:

---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 PM ----------

you ever heard of a kelvin rating like 10 000 to 20 000 "ultra day;light" used for anything?
 
  • #38
Yes - those are typically used for lighting aquariums, particularly planted aquariums or reef tanks that have specific need for intense light. If I recall correctly, high-frequency light penetrates water better than lower frequencies. My understanding is that, for our purposes, bulbs of those colors are not necessary and possibly suboptimal.
~Joe
 
  • #39
I LOVE 10,000K. That's as high as you should go if you want to grow plants though. 20,000K is too high.

10,000K doesn't work any better or anything, I just really like the crisp white light it makes. A couple of those and a couple of 6,500K lamps would be great. It's pretty :)
 
  • #40
Ron,

Phillips Luxeon has white LED's with CRI ratings all the way up to 90CRI
Now that is impressive!

http://www.luxeonstar.com/

I still say 5 yrs until they are a viable replacement, and when they do... they wont look like todays typical LED's, they will be more like Phillip's Luxeon light engines imho

Av
 
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