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White LED experiment

  • #61
The Inverse Square Law applies pretty much only to single point or isotropic energy sources. LASER energy is highly directional and moves in near parallel paths. There is some degree of divergence in LASERs. Researchers relied on some of that divergence in hitting the LASER target experiment left on the moon during the Apollo missions. You could imagine how much more difficult it would be to try to hit a small object with a very tiny beam at such distances and speeds.

So the Inverse Square Law:

If a point source is radiating energy in three dimensions and there is no energy lost to the medium, then the intensity decreases in proportion to distance from the object squared. This is due to physics and geometry. Physically, conservation of energy applies.

So light from a single point source travels outward in a sphere so as the distance from the source increases so does the surface area of the sphere. So in a sense the density of the photons would decrease as the surface area increases. Imagine a balloon painted with polka dots: as you inflate the balloon the number of dots remain constant but the space between the center of the dots increases also. This is not a perfect example - you would have to imagine that the size of the dots remain constant also.

A practical demonstration of this would be to take a conventional light source such as an ordinary incandescent light bulb. Cut a circular hole in a card opaque enough to block the light from the bulb. Keeping the distance constant between the light source and bulb observe the diameter of the "spot" of light passing through the hole on a card at various distances from the light source. The area of the "spot" should increase or decrease in accordance to the Inverse Square Law. Notice also that the "brightness" of the spot increases or decreases also. See the diagrams here.

The diameter of a laser beam for all intents and purposes in the distances involved for indoor plant growing will remain constant - thus the Inverse Square Law would not apply.
 
  • #62
I totally agree, its the size of the sphere doubling is key.... and this relationship with the source can be affected by optics
The balloon example reminds me of an method of demonstrating how the universe can expand in all directions from any one point

Nice :)

I'm definitely not expert in these matters but here is my logic. In this application, the distribution of energy does not remain constant over the sphere as the distance from source is increased. As a result of the optics a portion of the light waves are collimated to some degree. This portion will not distribute as much as the uncollimated portion would. Hence, the power distribution is not equal and constant as a function of distance from source. However, the inverse square law assumes that the energy is distributed evenly and that this distribution ratio is constant over the sphere even as the size of the sphere increases.

LOL, but i could be full of it too :)
 
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  • #63
Additional communications with Luxeon, I asked them to evaluate the project:

....I had a quick look at the thread and you seem to have a pretty good handle on how to use these LEDs. The most important element of using these LEDs is the cooling - and it would appear that you have that taken care of using the CPU heat sink. However I would still be inclined to check the running temperature of the LED if you can. If you have access to a very small thermocouple and temperature meter, then measure the temperature right on the base next to the LED. It should not be more than 80C - tops. Lower is better. 40C would be ideal if you can get it down that low. Heat destroys more LEDs over the long run than anything else. And the problem is it does not happen right away. It is a very slow degeneration process that causes the LED to slowly grow more dimmer over time.

Now while my temps are already close to 40C with passive cooling, I guess it would be prudent to go ahead and use Low Cfm/RPM/dB fans and stay at the 700ma current level.

Av
 
  • #64
Wow, that is pretty darn bright... I thought those LED mini-flash lights were bright to. I would love to see an update on the ping!

So, to even begin to understand the terms that you used to describe the use of these lights, where do I go? lol Probably will be way out of my price range for a while.
 
  • #65
AV,
Any updates?
 
  • #66
Everything is still progressing nicely, Ill snap a pic this evening.... and I think its about time to try a cape maybe

Ant, until I finish with the trials I cant recommend jumping into the water just yet

:)
 
  • #67
Av8,
Thanks for the update.
I feared the ping might be toast with that light intensity.
 
  • #68
Adam,

I believe it is way too much as it is. Right now there is a halo of algae growth around the "bright spot" but none in the "bright spot". Very unexpected observation but this would seem to indicate it's way too intense. I think the ping is telling me the same thing as well.

I can either increase the distance to the LED or decrease the output of the LED via the potentiometer. I'm leaning towards increasing the distance as this would also increase the LED's footprint.

I really need a photocell at this point to get some comparative intensity data.

Av
 
  • #69
So, would a different lens be a better choice then? Instead of a 22 degree, use a 27? Also, would the problem of the shadows be fixed by using a grow chamber or rack with a reflective layer like mylar? Compared to when the ping was under the T5s, how far away from the light was it?
 
  • #70
Ant, changing the auxiliary optic angle would be another option as well...

Its still early but I think eventually the ideal optic angle will depend on the canopy vs. intensity needs. Nice thing is the optics are only 2 or 3USD ea.... but what is best for any application is still an unknown variable at this point.

Since the light is so directional (at least with the current optics) compared to most other formats I'm not sure as to how much good Mylar would be.
It may very well end up being no aux optics are needed (which makes the effective angle about 120 degrees IIRC), then the close distance and Mylar might work out perfect.

Actually, the ping is a few inches closer to the LED then it was to the T5... but that was simply out of the convenience of using the ten gallon aquarium.

But before I make any changes, I want to try different plants and get some baseline observations.... so probably D. capensis next.
 
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  • #71
I don't pretend to understand most of this, but wouldn't some type of light scattering lens work better. I'm sorry for the non tech talk but I'm not well versed in this light/energy talk.
The algae growth is a good thing in a way. Shows good light.
Like I said, I don't know much about this at all.
Peace,
Zero

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------

I was thinking. It hurts:)
Is there anything like a camera lens that can change the direction of the light?
I don't mean a actual camera lens but the concept
Like turning it to put the lighting in a larger or smaller circle?
You may be able to grow more then one plant under this light.
My 3W LED flashlight is WAY too bright to shine in the eyes.
There is an actual warning in the box saying don't let kids use it and don't shine in eye's.
It put's a beam of light 300-400 yards very tight.
I think LED optics have a way to go.
Peace,
Zero
 
  • #72
Adam, I don't know of anyone who has adjustable aux optics that would be feasible in this application. The optic I chose to begin with was really a shot in the dark based on some marine hobbyist experiences. I did go with a "frosted" optic to get a little diffusion out of it.

This is all new territory... up till now we just moved the plants to fit the lighting. Now we can fine tune the lighting to fit the plant. All it takes is just a twist of a knob or the angle of a 3USD optic. The potential is great.... Imagine an entire plant rack with each plant getting just the right amount of light. A plant that needed shade could sit inches from a sun loving plant and both be in ideal lighting conditions.

A paradigm shift in plant lighting ;)

Personally I think we are still a few years away from widespread horticultural use.... but not many. If they were cheaper it would already be easy to fill the area above a plant rack with 15 or 20 of these units and have their outputs adjustable.
It's now mainly a matter of cost and figuring out how to use them.
 
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  • #73
Nice AV.
The lighting experiment you are doing is cutting edge.
I will look forward to the end results.
Peace,
Zero
 
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  • #74
Personally I think we are still a few years away from widespread horticultural use.... but not many.
While I hope that this is true, it's more than adjustable intensity and lower prices that need to be considered, as I don't think that the spectral distribution of these has yet been proved to be suitable for horticultural use. There is also the long term degradation of the phoshors to take into consideration. Keep up the good work Av.
 
  • #75
Adam,

Obviously got the color.... but trying to go dormant. I think that is my fault though.
While it was under my T5 and in constant airflow she was getting watered at least every 2 days.
Now since she is in a ten gallon aquarium and stayed damp Ive only watered twice in the last few weeks.

IMG_1898.JPG


Still a very positive result IMHO
Av
 
  • #77
Thanks for the link Joe, but the "real" ones are only half that cost mate

:)
 
  • #78
D'oh. Good to know, at least.
~Joe
 
  • #79
Phase II, D. capensis

Recent test subject donations from a generous benefactor
Mahalo nui loa :hail:

Increased the distance just a touch.... for this phase I moved away from the 10gal for that reason. Now using a highly specialized LED/CP test chamber ;)
IMG_1912.JPG

IMG_1913.JPG


Av
 
  • #80
Good luck mate...I hope it works out well. :D
 
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