So I've been reading alot of the threads and I read that you can never have too much light but what hurts the plants is the heat form the lights. Is it true you can't have too much light? Right now I have a 30" double t5 fixture with a coralife 6500K HO and a regular 6500K about 6-8" away from the plants and the terrarium I have is 30*12*12. I was wondering if that was enough or should I get more light?
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Light?
- Thread starter smarshall05
- Start date
GrowinOld
Not Growing Up!
Without more information,
like what KIND of plants you are actually growing,
would help when attempting to answer your question!
From what I would suggest right off the bat, not knowing what you are trying to grow,
is to stick with what you have and watch your plants response.
Plants DO communicate to us if we are attuned to their responses.
And to say that endlessly the more light the better and
that you can never have too much light, is more a generalized statement,
and a comment regarding the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of indoor lighting
and not an actual rule for growing great plants.
like what KIND of plants you are actually growing,
would help when attempting to answer your question!
From what I would suggest right off the bat, not knowing what you are trying to grow,
is to stick with what you have and watch your plants response.
Plants DO communicate to us if we are attuned to their responses.
And to say that endlessly the more light the better and
that you can never have too much light, is more a generalized statement,
and a comment regarding the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of indoor lighting
and not an actual rule for growing great plants.
seedjar
Let's positive thinking!
This depends largely on what you're growing. A few Nepenthes do better in slightly reduced light, as do an even smaller number of Drosera. Most Utricularia aren't especially demanding of light, I think - but don't quote me on that. Two T5s up close is a very good start, but for some plants the warmth of the bulbs at such close proximity might do more harm than the brightness is doing good. Most small Nepenthes will handle less-than-ideal light better than other stressors like excessive heat, whereas many Drosera and tropical Pinguicula can take hot and bright conditions in stride and may even really like it so long as they're in appropriate media and their water needs are well met.
A couple of details would really help here, beyond what you're growing. One is the air conditions in the tank - humidity/temperature (both day and night,) whether the tank is lidded or open, and if it has a circulation fan or something else to move the air such as flowing water. Are the plants potted individually, or is this a traditional planted terrarium? Another question would be what wattage your T5s are; most T5 fixtures and bulbs come in ordinary, energy efficient models, and high-output "T5HO" variants that draw much more power. If you're driving a Coralife bulb you probably have high-output ones, but it's worth clarifying.
Alternatives to getting more light might include building a better reflector for your existing fixture or lining the sides of the terrarium with reflective material. Both will make better use of the light you're already putting in, but the trade-off will likely be increased temperatures. 30x12x12" is a very small volume of air, so even a little more light might create a substantial change in other conditions.
~Joe
A couple of details would really help here, beyond what you're growing. One is the air conditions in the tank - humidity/temperature (both day and night,) whether the tank is lidded or open, and if it has a circulation fan or something else to move the air such as flowing water. Are the plants potted individually, or is this a traditional planted terrarium? Another question would be what wattage your T5s are; most T5 fixtures and bulbs come in ordinary, energy efficient models, and high-output "T5HO" variants that draw much more power. If you're driving a Coralife bulb you probably have high-output ones, but it's worth clarifying.
Alternatives to getting more light might include building a better reflector for your existing fixture or lining the sides of the terrarium with reflective material. Both will make better use of the light you're already putting in, but the trade-off will likely be increased temperatures. 30x12x12" is a very small volume of air, so even a little more light might create a substantial change in other conditions.
~Joe
Thanks for responding. Last night I actually just set up some tinfoil around the back and sides of the terraium. All the plants are planted in the terrarium and all of them seem to be doing pretty well. I have a repti fogger that I leave on for two hours and off for an hour repeated throughout the day and night which keeps the humidity at around 70-80%. The temp stays at about 78-80 degrees during the day and around 70 at night. I have a red piranha and big mouth flytrap, a white cape sundew, two capillaris and a Nepenthes ramispina. The white cape sundew is growing pretty fast. It looks like the nepenthes is staring to grow another pitcher. The big mouth had a flower bud starting to grow but I clipped it off.
seedjar
Let's positive thinking!
I wouldn't worry too much about adding light in that case until your plants get settled in and you become accustomed to their growth habits. Sounds like things should be pretty manageable for the time being, but I'll give two cautions. First, keeping VFTs indoors can be a challenging, delicate affair and is generally not recommended for beginners - you'll likely have some difficulty with them come next winter because they need lower temperatures and other environmental triggers to tell them when to rest each year. (VFTs are accustomed to near-freezing temperatures and even snows in the winter.) Second, Nepenthes typically have different needs in terms of media compared to wetland carnivores like Drosera and Dionaea. In particular, their roots don't appreciate being in standing water, so you will likely have a hard time sustaining them unless you provided a good drainage layer at the bottom of tank. Most Nepenthes grow in loose substrates comprised primarily of leaf litter or sometimes gravel, which stay moist but not waterlogged.
People do make mixed terraria work like this sometimes, but rarely just by luck alone. Your water quality will be very important - unless you are able to remove water from the tank, any dissolved solids contained therein will accumulate in the media as the water evaporates. I strongly suggest reading other people's terrarium threads to see the problems they've faced and the methods used to cope. Also, you should familiarize yourself with the native environments that your plants hail from so that you can understand what types of conditions they desire - this can often reveal details that you wouldn't expect by merely looking at how people cultivate them in pots.
Another general tip is, while you're learning what's what with your plants, research how to propagate them from cuttings. It will likely be a while before your Nepenthes is ready to be cloned, but Drosera and Dionaea are both pretty easy from leaf cuttings on average. Finally, be patient and observant; observe your plants carefully and try not to jump to conclusions about your method. Nepenthes in particular are slow to respond to changes in conditions, but all CPs can take some time to let you know what's going on with them, both good and bad.
Hope that helps.
~Joe
People do make mixed terraria work like this sometimes, but rarely just by luck alone. Your water quality will be very important - unless you are able to remove water from the tank, any dissolved solids contained therein will accumulate in the media as the water evaporates. I strongly suggest reading other people's terrarium threads to see the problems they've faced and the methods used to cope. Also, you should familiarize yourself with the native environments that your plants hail from so that you can understand what types of conditions they desire - this can often reveal details that you wouldn't expect by merely looking at how people cultivate them in pots.
Another general tip is, while you're learning what's what with your plants, research how to propagate them from cuttings. It will likely be a while before your Nepenthes is ready to be cloned, but Drosera and Dionaea are both pretty easy from leaf cuttings on average. Finally, be patient and observant; observe your plants carefully and try not to jump to conclusions about your method. Nepenthes in particular are slow to respond to changes in conditions, but all CPs can take some time to let you know what's going on with them, both good and bad.
Hope that helps.
~Joe
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GrowinOld
Not Growing Up!
Well said Joe,
I couldn't have said it better in the time I have available!
It is always the weakest variable that limits plant growth, so improving lights without
improving other necessary conditions doesn't make up for the lacking conditions!
Smarshall, I knew you would be reprimanded for growing a VFT indoors, but indeed different plants have different needs, some (like VFTs) very specific.
It is not "one size fits all"!
Good Luck!
I couldn't have said it better in the time I have available!
It is always the weakest variable that limits plant growth, so improving lights without
improving other necessary conditions doesn't make up for the lacking conditions!
Smarshall, I knew you would be reprimanded for growing a VFT indoors, but indeed different plants have different needs, some (like VFTs) very specific.
It is not "one size fits all"!
Good Luck!
seedjar
Let's positive thinking!
I try not to condemn people for wanting to grow their VFTs indoors - I've seen skilled growers with some unbelievable successes. But I strongly believe that inital failures are bad for learning, so it's important to start with the basics before you try things "the hard way." There are always exceptions, but there's a reason people in general feel so strongly about outdoor culture for VFTs. I'd rather sound like a jerk for telling people they might be doing it wrong than see them waste their time and money or get frustrated and give up on VFTs altogether just because they got in over their heads. If you point out that VFTs are touchy indoors, even if they don't move them outside, they at least know that problems are to be expected and there are other ways to approach it.
~Joe
~Joe
GrowinOld
Not Growing Up!
Ouch! Hey,
Never called anyone a jerk seed! Are you reacting to me or to some past issue?
In fact I said I agreed with you.
I just know how a lot of people around here are on the subject
and knew him mentioning growing it indoors would bring up the subject.
Thats also why I mentioned about "some (like VFTs) very specific" in their needs.
I am sure there are more in depth issues we can get into a disagreement about than some
indoor VFT!
Sorry I brought it up! Didin't mean a thing by it
and wasn't referring to you! (I actually wrote my post moments within the time you posted, so didn't even know you would be the one to address it!
Have a nice day!
Never called anyone a jerk seed! Are you reacting to me or to some past issue?
In fact I said I agreed with you.
I just know how a lot of people around here are on the subject
and knew him mentioning growing it indoors would bring up the subject.
Thats also why I mentioned about "some (like VFTs) very specific" in their needs.
I am sure there are more in depth issues we can get into a disagreement about than some
indoor VFT!
Sorry I brought it up! Didin't mean a thing by it
and wasn't referring to you! (I actually wrote my post moments within the time you posted, so didn't even know you would be the one to address it!
Have a nice day!
seedjar
Let's positive thinking!
No no no, don't get self-conscious. I was referring to the newcomers that get super defensive when you tell them they might be doing something wrong. For what it's worth, I did miss that you were referring to my second post and not my third, but my next comment was mostly just reflecting my mixed feelings about being critical of people's first attempts. Don't worry about offending me - I'm a big boy. If I've got a problem with you I'll either ignore it or call you out directly. It's all good. 
~Joe
~Joe
seedjar
Let's positive thinking!
GrowinOld
Not Growing Up!
All good
Smarsh...
To make a very long answer as short as possible and to add to everything Joe has already shared, growing VFT's indoors in a terrarium was an old, widespread and commonly accepted way in which thought best to grow VFT's. In more recent years however, it was found (in general) NOT to be the best way to grow them! People didn't fully realize the type of cold/winter dormancy and the amount of full sunlight (and the other requirements the plants needed filled) in order to thrive.
Some of their actual needs and how to fulfill them have since come into question, and many people are still trying to determine where the lines are drawn concerning a plant's bare survival and that of truly thriving, & so environments are still being evaluated, experimented with, and are still the subject of debate. Indeed, with the technology of lighting, water purity, temperature control, etc. still evolving, there may never be one "absolute" answer as to what one "can" or "cannot" do when it comes to growing VFT's. At what point is a plant really thriving as compared to just surviving, is the first question, but to determine if that plant can be grown under artificial conditions is likely to be an ever changing variable.
Indeed years ago, with the limited technology of lighting alone, growing VFT's and a lot of other plants indoors was not a good thing to do. With today's high output lights, (and hopefully tomorrows cooler / high intensity lights on the way) along with better technology to create artificial environments (along with developing new techniques and methods) for providing the means to fill the plants growing and dormancy needs, indoor cultivation may some day be preferred over outdoor, "natural" environments... which today are still the best for the average new grower... in many ways.
Indeed, methods and equipment are ever changing, and hence the topic remains active and open for debate and experimental efforts.
Once you are in this field long enough, you come to realize that like many things, methods and "rules" are ever changing, improving and developing. It is hard to say if we will ever come to one final way of doing something that is absolutely the best! For the "best" way will always be dependent on things that are ever changing!
People often do get into arguing over what can and can't be done, but for myself, I have been around long enough to have seen many rules, methods and of course technology, change dramatically. I know from experience that things change, and find it funny whenever someone here emotionally speaks out about what "can't" be done! Todays impossibility is often tomorrows common place activity.With all the other plants around in the world with even stricter requirements being grown indoors, I find it amusing that people here are so ready to jump on the "VFT's can't be grown well indoors!" bandwagon.
Perhaps the knowledge and equipment the average newbie grower has is in fact not sufficient to grow them indoors, however basing your opinions only on what new, inexperienced growers with limited equipment can do is hardly a way to establish what "can and cannot" be done when it comes to growing CP's!
(Okay, Did I explain that in a way that can be understood? Well, I tried...)
Seed: No problem... All good here also Joe... at least with you...
In view of recent events, I just needed to clarify things openly in some fashion, lest some problem inadvertently congealed between us.
I can't speak for the newbie experts I have encountered recently however.
As I posted elsewhere recently, with some of the responses I have gotten as a result of sharing information, helping people out (often via PM) and even giving people plants, I just don't understand the logic of people's responses anymore. The ability to follow thru, show appreciation, communicate effectively and just showing others the simplest form of respect and regard, once common when relating with others, seems to be the first victim of a world where interaction with others face to face in the real world ...in the moment of the "now", has been replaced by the new world culture of email, facebook, self-checkout, ATMs and other human-less automation where the self is the only person involved. People are no longer learning the basics of maturely & effectively interacting with others, as they are isolating themselves from it in their lives.
That may be a strange theory of what has caused such a change in the way people are (or aren't) relating, but I don't know what else the cause could be, as it is so widespread and not limited to one or two dysfunctional individuals.
(And as a reminder, I am NOT referring to anyone in this particular post/thread. It just is in response to some of the other recent experiences I have had and/or seen between others here on TF.) And again Joe, I really didn't mean my comments about what you wrote about growing VFT's indoors, as you explained it well. I too have seen many people who literally freak out
& go overboard when it comes to that subject, and I was originally writing to warn him that he might encounter that from them down the line by bringing it up. [I know you know the type who I am referring to!] When I saw your post [which you put up while I was still in the middle of writing my post here] I quickly just changed it a little.... but again, what I originally wrote wasn't based about what you said.
Smarsh...
To make a very long answer as short as possible and to add to everything Joe has already shared, growing VFT's indoors in a terrarium was an old, widespread and commonly accepted way in which thought best to grow VFT's. In more recent years however, it was found (in general) NOT to be the best way to grow them! People didn't fully realize the type of cold/winter dormancy and the amount of full sunlight (and the other requirements the plants needed filled) in order to thrive.
Some of their actual needs and how to fulfill them have since come into question, and many people are still trying to determine where the lines are drawn concerning a plant's bare survival and that of truly thriving, & so environments are still being evaluated, experimented with, and are still the subject of debate. Indeed, with the technology of lighting, water purity, temperature control, etc. still evolving, there may never be one "absolute" answer as to what one "can" or "cannot" do when it comes to growing VFT's. At what point is a plant really thriving as compared to just surviving, is the first question, but to determine if that plant can be grown under artificial conditions is likely to be an ever changing variable.
Indeed years ago, with the limited technology of lighting alone, growing VFT's and a lot of other plants indoors was not a good thing to do. With today's high output lights, (and hopefully tomorrows cooler / high intensity lights on the way) along with better technology to create artificial environments (along with developing new techniques and methods) for providing the means to fill the plants growing and dormancy needs, indoor cultivation may some day be preferred over outdoor, "natural" environments... which today are still the best for the average new grower... in many ways.
Indeed, methods and equipment are ever changing, and hence the topic remains active and open for debate and experimental efforts.
Once you are in this field long enough, you come to realize that like many things, methods and "rules" are ever changing, improving and developing. It is hard to say if we will ever come to one final way of doing something that is absolutely the best! For the "best" way will always be dependent on things that are ever changing!
People often do get into arguing over what can and can't be done, but for myself, I have been around long enough to have seen many rules, methods and of course technology, change dramatically. I know from experience that things change, and find it funny whenever someone here emotionally speaks out about what "can't" be done! Todays impossibility is often tomorrows common place activity.With all the other plants around in the world with even stricter requirements being grown indoors, I find it amusing that people here are so ready to jump on the "VFT's can't be grown well indoors!" bandwagon.
Perhaps the knowledge and equipment the average newbie grower has is in fact not sufficient to grow them indoors, however basing your opinions only on what new, inexperienced growers with limited equipment can do is hardly a way to establish what "can and cannot" be done when it comes to growing CP's!
(Okay, Did I explain that in a way that can be understood? Well, I tried...)
Seed: No problem... All good here also Joe... at least with you...
In view of recent events, I just needed to clarify things openly in some fashion, lest some problem inadvertently congealed between us.
I can't speak for the newbie experts I have encountered recently however.
As I posted elsewhere recently, with some of the responses I have gotten as a result of sharing information, helping people out (often via PM) and even giving people plants, I just don't understand the logic of people's responses anymore. The ability to follow thru, show appreciation, communicate effectively and just showing others the simplest form of respect and regard, once common when relating with others, seems to be the first victim of a world where interaction with others face to face in the real world ...in the moment of the "now", has been replaced by the new world culture of email, facebook, self-checkout, ATMs and other human-less automation where the self is the only person involved. People are no longer learning the basics of maturely & effectively interacting with others, as they are isolating themselves from it in their lives.
That may be a strange theory of what has caused such a change in the way people are (or aren't) relating, but I don't know what else the cause could be, as it is so widespread and not limited to one or two dysfunctional individuals.
(And as a reminder, I am NOT referring to anyone in this particular post/thread. It just is in response to some of the other recent experiences I have had and/or seen between others here on TF.) And again Joe, I really didn't mean my comments about what you wrote about growing VFT's indoors, as you explained it well. I too have seen many people who literally freak out
& go overboard when it comes to that subject, and I was originally writing to warn him that he might encounter that from them down the line by bringing it up. [I know you know the type who I am referring to!] When I saw your post [which you put up while I was still in the middle of writing my post here] I quickly just changed it a little.... but again, what I originally wrote wasn't based about what you said.
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